Draconian punishments year 1

[Mama2Tas]

Monday last week my daughter aged 5 "didnt have her listening ears on" so she was sent to stand in the coridoor (alone) but the deputy head happened to be there (doing her own work) when my daughter got there from being sent out of the hall where she was having PE. The main head then happened to walk passed and told my daughter off having identifed that she was in some sort of trouble hence standing in the coridoor. Quite understandable in my opinion you're being disruptive and not listening and thats not good behaviour, (except for the fact that it seems if the deputy head wasnt there then she would have been standing in the coridoor alone which doesnt seem safe at the age of 5 but I do understand that there was some sort of consequence to be had).

She was later taken to the classroom with all the other children where they got there coats and then went for playtime except my daughter who was made to stand against the wall for the entire playtime 15 minutes. She was after that at pick up made to stand and tell me everything that happened and she was looking down and embarrassed for sure.

I asked for a meeting the next day and the school teacher initially failed to tell the head the second part of the punishment she arranged for my daughter so the head had to go away again and ask her. She denied it was the entire play and states "it was only 5 minutes" which I did say I didnt think was necessary but wasnt able to call her a liar even though I had doubts because of her secrecy about it in the first place plus the fact she said to my daughter on pick up "if you do good listening then you dont have to get frustrated that you miss your play".

In between all this time i discovered another child was involved and spoke to his mum. She confirmed that whilst she had been called by the teacher to say he "didn't do good listening" she wasnt told about the wall punishment at all and she was equally upset. She asked her son (tactfully to describe what happened and he corroborates my daughters version of events plus another child who has been asked very casually by her mum to guage her response (so as not to sway her reply) confirmed it was the entire play and she wasnt allowed to play even for 1 minute.

This has raised two problems for me a) an issue of disproportionate disciplinary measures plus b) concerns that there are lies being told and cover ups from others etc.

Additionally out of nowhere Monday she wet herself at home in the kitchen and Tuesday, (which was the last day I let her attend) wet herself at school and was sent home in spare clothes. We haven't had such instances of weeing like this for ages and the last time she randomly started weeing was due to our house move so I conclude it was triggered by stress related to this incident.

When I had a meeting (ive had 2 so far the first was when the head hadn't been informed about the extended punishment and the second was after she spoke to the teacher who made her aware about the second part of the punishment and id also had new information from the witness confirming what she said about the 5 minutes not being true) the head teacher replied to me saying "I have a witness who corroborates my daughters story" by saying "I have several members of staff who corroborate my teachers version of events" which I interpret as her saying its your word against ours whilst also suggesting that 5 minutes against the wall was ok when I dont think the punishment should have been extended to the playground at all. I thought at that age it wasnt about punishing but guiding and positive reinforcements etc? Absolutely zero acknowledgement of it being wrong has taken place. They have asked me to attend a meeting Friday but even the last email states "all our staff have regular safeguarding updates" which I feel is still upholding the fact that they are all fully trained and free from error in this instance.

Ive pulled her out of this school but there is a waiting time for new placement and im panicking that taking her out is going to disrupt her further. Im genuinely feeling quite lost and upset. Am I doing the right thing? Please dont be horrible I feel extremely anxious as it is

As an ex teacher I’ve witnessed this - teachers will lie and stick together!

Not me but I’ve seen some shocking treatment of children by other staff

Standing out in the corridor like this was a punishment at the extremely strict private school I went to for kids aged 8 and up. I would be appalled if this was being done to kids aged 5.

I am a HOY 11
I wouldn't treat a 16 year old in this manner, let alone a little child.
Get your child away from that school and don't look back.

Concentration (which surely includes listening skills), is a developmental thing. It seems your child’s teacher and the head are forgetting this. At age 5, I would expect a good proportion of students to just not be mature enough developmentally to have good listening skills. Encouragement needed rather than punishment where there are lapses. I’m horrified by your daughter’s treatment which quite frankly seems like child abuse.

You were right to take her out. Get her into somewhere else and don’t worry about the wait. Her mental health is more important. But use the time to help her learn although 5 year olds generally learn through play but also do phonics. Good luck.

Yeah you’re doing the right thing moving schools.
Lying to parents and covering stuff up is a really bad sign

If the school aren't responding to your emails follow the school complaints policy, and get it flagged up to the headteacher/governers - you could include some wording about the school not having their listening ears on.

You could also make a subject access request to the schools data protection officer then you can find out if what they are telling you consistent with the internal documentation on your child.

Even if the truth is somewhere in the middle, it's still overkill, completely disproportionate and they've scared the shit out of a wee girl for basically not listening, which is a normal thing to happen for five year olds but not a bit alone thing for adults. Every day schools sound more and more punitive and you're right to take her out of there. Poor girl.

You have 100% done the right thing. My sons previous school couldn’t be bothered to deal with my son struggling at break times (he has ADHD and would frequently get overwhelmed and act out) he was 8 and made to stay in the classroom every lunch time as the school had literally 2 lunchtime supervisors for over 350 children playing outside. It wasn’t until I moved his school that I realised the damage they had done by isolating him. His new school were horrified how he had been treated and were amazing at helping him regain his confidence. He’s grown in to a wonderful, polite young man with lots of friends but I still feel so guilty that I didn’t realise the impact of their treatment of my son. Thankfully you are more proactive than I was initially and you will prevent your child from the unnecessary trauma my son had to endure. I hope she finds a school that treats her and teaches her the way she deserves.

Standing facing the wall for 5minutes would seem like a lifetime for me as an adult for a 5 yr old child that is a horrible punishment. Also some educators believe that removing break time should not be done as it gives children the opportunity to regulate themselves and effectively enables them to learn and focus in the classroom.

Thank you xxx

I would 100% pull her from this school. I have no words, honestly. My son is also Year 1 and an August baby and I cannot emphasise how supportive and collaborative the school have been, discipline is fair and age appropriate, and their communication is fantastic. Sending you big hugs. She is still very young and fighting for the right setting now will feel draining but so important for you both, I suspect you'll never trust them and always be concerned x

Wow that's a horrible way to treat such a young child. My daughter is almost the exact same age and I would be so upset if she was treated like this. As would she.

I'm really glad you have taken her out of this school and I hope another place will become available for her soon, with a much more positive experience.

You are not a teacher. No they wouldn't. It's really not helpful to spout bollocks dressed up as advice.

It doesn't sound like you're giving the full story here OP. She was sent out for not listening but then had to admit to everything that happened... So a bit more than just not listening.

Yes, it sounds awful for just 'not listening', but that's obviously not it, is it. Was she not listening when told to stop hurting another child and had to be removed for others safety? Or not listening when told to stop making noises so the rest of the class couldn't hear the lesson? There are many plausible reasons why this might have been ok. Was the door in line of sight of the teacher? So could the teacher see her through the door window?

The standing outside the classroom isn't the consequence/punishment/whatever you want to call it. That was just so the teacher could teach the other 29 kids. The standing at the wall (no where does it mention facing the wall, just standing at the wall, is effectively a 5 minute time out, which is the consequence.

Not good listening in PE, sounds like being dangerous. You have to be very strict in PE because accidents can happen very easily with a lot of children being physical, possibly with appatatus, in a small space. I suspect the punishment was to miss her playtime, but the teacher had to get her out of the lesson for safety.
I dont understand what you mean about IF the deputy head hadnt been there- she was!
As for lying and covering up, you do understand that the teacher is probably o ly on duty one day a week and likely wasnt there when the wall punishment was happening and so wont know exactly what happened with every child

Well I am a teacher, regardless of what you think and getting children to stand against the wall is draconian and is an unacceptable consequence for negative behaviour! Ofsted will come in and do unannounced visits if there is evidence that Safeguarding is not in place. Staff lying to cover each others backs and the use of humiliating punishments do not comply with current safeguarding regulations. A previous school I worked in had such an unannounced safeguarding visit, so actually Mrs ‘know-everything’, I’m not spouting bollocks so off you pop…

Time out is not "Draconian" ffs. Ofsted don't give a shiny shit about time outs.

And if you really were a teacher, you'd know that you would not be privvy to any safeguarding concerns unless you were directly involved. The safeguarding concerns Ofsted would actually visit for are serious abuse allegations. Even security risks would be a 'visit soon' rather than immediate. There is no way in hell Ofsted would consider a time out as a serious safeguarding concerns.

You'd also realise that the so-called covering up is just from relaying information from teacher > whoever was on break duty > back to teacher > to the head > to the parent.

Children can get things wrong. Children can exaggerate. Some will outright lie. Some will have a reaction that’s disproportionate. School is definitely not the right place for some.

Obviously, the word “children” can be replaced by “teacher” and be just as valid.

Honestly, if you think standing next to a wall for a few minutes timeout is 'draconian', you must have lived a very charmed life!

Firstly, I'm so sorry to hear this, as someone who works in schools this makes me really sad - most of us really want children to be happy.

Secondly, being sent out of the hall isn't a safeguarding issue, even if she was alone - most children that's age go to the toilet alone and schools are incredibly secure as we get 'runners' so that part of things is less unsettling to me...though I'd be interested to know how long she was out there for, as 5 minutes would be the appropriate time for her age.

On the other hand the break time incident causes me grave concern - I have seen staff cover for each other and it always gives me cause to leave the setting, I cannot stand it - it's basically gaslighting children, which is abusive.
If she has "several staff members" then call her on it - but wait until you're in the meeting - then say you'd like her to now call in, individually, ever staff member who corroborates the teachers story so you can ask them two simple questions, it will take less than 30 seconds each and you're happy to wait.
Then ask each of them these two questions: 1. What time did you witness (your child) stood at the wall originally.

1. What time did they see the teacher release (your child) to play.

See how many of them either didn't see her released or give differing times - that will tell you once and for all if the teacher is lying. Don't give them a heads up or they will chat and agree timings.

In all honesty, since my last placement in a primary school, I don't believe a word teachers say - the deputy head (now full head) lied during a meeting we had with a higher up member of the trust...I was caught off guard and completely horrified that she was rewriting history over a mistake she had made. I left that day and never went back because I just left like if she's willing to do that then there's no hope for the place.

Good luck. Do let the next school know that your daughter is sensitive and will have accidents if stressed - most teachers will handle her differently if they are aware how sensitive she is to stress.

I am a supply teacher and I went in a year one class last week that was like this. Before the children arrived the head came in and told me that they had ‘high expectations’ and that the work in books had to be immaculate. I was told to send anyone who was misbehaving in to year four. I think he the would be impressed but I was not.

When the children arrived the ta was on them so much. No talking allowed. Before playtime they had done two pages of phonics, handwriting, guided reading, sentences about the reading and a full English lesson.

They didn’t seem to know how to react to fun. One of them cried because I put a circle around a sound in phonics on the interactive whiteboard when you are supposed to underline it with a ruler. I think he was scared I was going to be told off.

The whole thing was awful and it’s not something I would want my child to be a part of.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when the op tries to tell the headteacher she will be
subpoenaing her staff for cross-examination. Please do let us know how that goes for you, op!!
Seriously though, you are going to run out of schools by the time she is 7 if you carry on in this ridiculous vein every time your child is sanctioned. Standing by the wall for time out is a very common consequence used in many schools, because it does not require any additional staff. You are going to get nowhere with thiscomplaint. Keep your powder dry. Pick your battles.

Trust your gut.

Demand a review by the school's board of governors. They will have a process for this. Sounds like this school is in a bad way.