Has anyone completely withdrawn their DC from RE at primary school? Experiences pls...

[MegBusset]

it's a long way off for us to start worrying about it but just wondering what people's experiences were. We will definitely withdraw DS from the 'act of worship' bit when he goes to school (will definitely be a community school, we are atheists and don't believe religion should have a place in schools unless in a strictly historical sense).

Undecided, however, about whether to keep him out of RE part of the curriculum as well, and interested in the experiences of people who have done this, or considered doing it but then decided not to. Do you feel your DC missed out? What did they do instead? Did they still get to take part in debates about moral issues?

Don't want this to turn into a debate about whether religion should have a place in schools, it's been done to death and you won't change my mind on that one!

Madamez-can you give a shred of evidence that God doesn't exist?
I would much rather that my DCs were in a school assembly, having a few moments of calm each day to contemplate moral issues, than to have a parent who is telling them her beliefs are facts.
That God exists is NOT a fact.
That God does not exist is NOT a fact.
How many years have you spent studying the subject before making up your mind?
The central message of Christianity (whether or not you believe in God)is treat others as you would like to be treated. I don't see how anyone could argue with that.
I am not disputing your right to be an atheist, all I am saying is that I believe it is wrong to force that view upon your DCs by not allowing them to listen to alternatives. While your view doesn't upset me, as I said I am not writing as a committed Christain, I think that it is incredibly insensitive to people who have a deep belief to tell them that it is 'crap' and equates to elves and invisible frogs! Everyones beliefs should be treated with respect.
I am not saying that I am RIGHT to believe there is a God, there may not. What makes you so sure that you are RIGHT?
The more we find out about science the more I am inclined to believe there is a God. Not one of my 3DSs believe in God-that is fine-they are not clones of me.They may change their minds later, they may not.

"and your computer come to life and dance round the house singing hurtful songs about you?"

lol ... my computer plays up... it certainly makes hurtful noises. I think it would be too slow dance around the house.

Anyway... Scientists are pretty representative of the population. Some of them believe in one God, some in lots of Gods and some in no God. Like most people scientists are influenced by their parents what beliefs they pick.

Generally scientists are too interested in science to get seriously religous. Why are we here? and questions of that nature are as much philosophy as science.

When I worked in science I was more interested in practical every day stuff. Like working out the radiation dose that someone has had after an accident and what is the best way of stopping them dying. I believe in life before death.

If you were seriously interested in religon then you would get a job as a priest or humanist celebrant rather than science.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of C of E vicars believe in God.

I think that people can be seriously interested in something and not want to get a job in it!!

ReallyTired on Tue 06-May-08 18:49:32
"It is more or less guarenteed that your child will believe exactly what their parens believe until the age 12 or 13 when hormones kick in."

Not so sure of this one, actually- or else, we're just an awkward family. My Mum was brought up by a believing mother (whom she loved) but never believed herself as far as I know.

I was brought up by same atheist/agnostic mother (and d father) in a totally non-believing household and yet was a believing Christian by the age of 8 or 9. No idea where that came from, certainly not from Grandma (who was dead by then), nor do I have any memory of rebelling against my parents on this matter. Nor was my school particularly religious. It just so happened that I believed these things.

I am still a Christian, but neither of my dc's is.

Oh well, forget it, perhaps we're just an awkward bunch.

I am a devout atheist too.

Totally disagree with the daily act of christian worship in schools but I still want my kids to have an appreciation, understanding, tolerance and respect for others' beliefs.

Why is it disrespectful to compare belief in one nonexistent thing (a particular god) to other nonexistent things (elves, killer frogs, flying teapots)? It's not stopping you holding your beliefs - why should anyone else be obliged, in a public place, to take anyone's superstitions seriously?
Astrology, for instance, is something that stupid many people take quite seriously. Would all those of you who think it's OK to have DC forced to pretend to talk to imaginary beings just because they are 'christian' imaginary beings be happy for the school day to begin with all DC being divided into 12 groups (or is it 13?) to read aloud that day's horoscope?
If not, why not? It's harmless, after all. And lots of people believe in it

You are missing the point madamez.
Lets say someone(call her Mrs Jones) believes in invisible killer frogs. I would think her a nutcase! However she is entitled to her beliefs, I am not going to belttle her by calling it 'crap'. My DCs may well come home and say 'Mrs Jones is a raving nutcase' -I will then say that I think they are right but we have to be tolerant and as long as it isn't hurting anyone we don't have to say so! They may come home saying that there are invisible killer frogs all over our house because Mrs Jones says so, in which case I will tell them it is unlikely because of a,b,c and possibly d,e,and f.Most likely it won't have any impact at all and they won't even mention it. The POINT is that I will NOT say that they can't listen to Mrs Jones, because as their mother I am the thought police, and have decided for them.
You still have not mentioned how much study you have given to religion to come to the conclusion that you are talking to nothing.

I think the main problem for me is that admission to some schools is based on killer frog belief; the a war or two has been based on killer frog certainties and some groups in society are looked down on because they believe in killer bunnies (let's say muslims...) not killers frogs! Or that belief in killer toads or anyone in their family ever having believed in killer toads(let's say) has lead in the past to people being gathered up and burnt in gas chanmbers.

IMO this is a debate between two certainties - and never the twain shall meet!

I'm a scientist and am seriously religious. I have no interest in being a Priest or Religious though. I am also interested in Art but I'm not a serious artist. I like skiing and riding but I'm don't work as a ski instructor or jockey. I think its bizzare to think that you can't be interested in something without making your career out of it.

Agree with Elkhound. Being a priest isn't just about bumbling around and feeling very religious; it's a specific job description which requires specific aptitudes and wanting to work in a specific way. Just believing doesn't make you a good priest. I've known lots of people who believed fervently in the times tables but would still make rotten teachers.

Besides, there are far more Christians than there would be openings for priests, should they all get a vocation.

Ds's school is non-denominational but does teach children about and celebrate Christmas, Easter, Harvest Festival etc. etc. etc. And I'm all in favour - important for any child in the UK to understand the cultural baggage that formed this country. And talking about the Bible stories does provide some idea about morality. IIRC they 'did' Chinese New Year as well (talked about it, made stuff). Can't remember any other religious festivals being celebrated although that probably reflects the population of the school - other religions are definitely in a minority.

They are now discussing religion at school and I know they've been talking about Islam - ds came home and told me a mosque is like a church if you are a Muslim and one particular girl is Muslim (he's in reception so the ideas are very simple at this stage). Tbh I know a couple of other kids who are Muslim but strangely that doesn't seem to have been mentioned.

The only girls at my school who didn't come to assembly were Jewish - about eight of them. People of other religions did attend and AFAIK none of them converted! I think the girls who were withdrawn missed out tbh, there's all the other stuff that goes on in assembly. And I'm sure our RS teacher was Jewish, IIRC.

My dcs go to Catholic school and they do chinese new year too. They do learn about other religion. atm there is a massive display about Islam in the hall.

AbbeyA: I'm quite aware that many friends neighbours and aquaintances of mine do believe in a variety of old cock from gods to horoscopes to talking trees. It's up to them aned I don't pick fights with friends about it. But on an internet forum I see no reason to treat superstition with anything other than mockery: the superstituous are either secure in their delusions and good luck to them, or they are beginning to realise that it's all crap and good luck to them too. But giving any supersition privileges (however benign the majority of its adherents) is a bad idea because it makes it harder to stop the non-benign superstitious from doing damage.

The problem is madamez that you are dismissing religion as superstitious nonsense without having made a study of it, it has been around since time began and is fascinating. All the major religions have a lot in common for example the 10 Commandments (Christianity and Judaism), the Buddhists 8 foldpath,5 pillars of Islam etc. There are thousands of years of history, great thinkers and spiritual leaders and yet you are equating it with killer frogs, Easter bunnies and the like! I accept that we will have to agree to differ, nothing is going to make you change your mind but I think it is pretty insulting to lump it in with elves.
I think you should, at the very least, let your DCs learn about it and not decide for them. You still have not given a single fact to back up any of your arguments.

I am pleased that I was not the only one to think it peculiar to assume that everyone who is interested in religion should get a job in it-I thought it was an astonishing statement!

AbbeyA I am quite aware that religions have been around for a long time and I am actually quite interested in the differences and similarities in the various myth systems, be they christian, nordic, celtic, islamic, hindu or whatever. From a cultural point of view there is some interesting stuff to read and some great poetry. The same applies to stories about gnomes, elves, pixies etc.
Doesn;t stop it all being a load of old cock ie Not True, though.

' But at it most liberal it teaches that all religions are equally valid. That we 'share' a God.'

thats really not my experience (not that limited, just finishing re degree lol)- we learn facts,and a lot of cultural stuff too. I believe its essential for tolerance, for example knowing why a Sikh might carry a dagger, or a Muslim fast for Ramadan. it's about being included in a world that holds so ver many exciting types of people and place, and I truly believe it to be a most important part of education when done correctly.

90% of my classmates will go on to teach, there's one I am a bit about as he is so Evangelical and genuinely belives 'heathens' are inferior, but the rest I know will strive to be 'educational, not denominational' iykwim

Abbey Islam has commandments as well as the Pillars. although they vary a bit.

It's not all tosk Madamez- ytou don't need to believe in a deity to find truths in religion, such as the value of kindness, charity etc. in many ways the deity can be a small part- its the value system tat matters most.

abbeyA,
I was being a bit flipplant.

There are levels of study of relgions. I am interested in religon up to a point and then I switch off.

A priest does a four year degree in theology. They read the bible in its orginal language. Its fair to say that I am not quite that interested in the bible.

However Jesus still loves me even if I have not read the bible in Hebrew. He accepts and loves me for who I am.

I suppose that Steiner is a relgion and certainly believe in gnomes.

I am not trying to convert anyone-I am just against parents telling their DCs what to believe and not giving them access to other view points. Withdrawing a DC from assembly is very narrow minded IMO. Children are not blank pieces of paper-very young DCs have their own reasoning skills. If they go to a school where God is presented as a truth, and you are not happy with it, you only have to have a discussion about it with them-you do not have to isolate them.

Just for a bit of fun

newsbiscuit.com/article/atheism-renounced-to-avoid-working-bank-holiday-weekend-242

I agree AbbeyA.
Presenting your opinion as fact to your children is more controlling than letting them take part in an RE lesson that presents many different religions to them.

I am not really religious, but dd loves the hymns, bible stories and other Christian traditons she learns about at school.

Will those of you opposed to Christianity in schools also reveal that there is no Santa or Tooth Fairy, or are these traditions you are prepared to accept even though you know them to be untrue?

Peachy: but you don't need a religion to understand the values of kindness, fairness, etc.
FBF: while I object strongly to 'acts of worship' being enforced (if they are voluntary they are no more my concern than whether or not someone shaves their fanjo underarms) I have no problem with DS being told about Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Jesus, Mohammed, Vishnu, Jehovah, Odin or Kali - because I will teach him that they are all the same thing: cultural and mythological constructs about which there are a variety of stories.

Imo childhood should be a time of wonder and magic.

Plenty of time for cynisism later.

masdamez totally agree, but if somone is motivated to do good then its not worthlees (eg Zakat in Islam)

I struggl with evangelical religion but a personal faith is not harmful at all. Indeed, having a belief- whether that's atheistic humanism (as I defined myself for many years, dh still does) or a deistic faith matters only to the person, as long as it makes them feel happy and grounded

and having ben raised near glastonbury, if that involves fairies etc, then heck- whatever floats yer boat!

more seriously a lot of harm is done in the name of religion (or lack of- communism) but so is a lot of good and I am a strong believer that the nature of the individual will prevail, whatever they ascribe that to is largely irrelevant. a tyrant will abuse and a saint give, deity or no.