Has anyone completely withdrawn their DC from RE at primary school? Experiences pls...

[MegBusset]

it's a long way off for us to start worrying about it but just wondering what people's experiences were. We will definitely withdraw DS from the 'act of worship' bit when he goes to school (will definitely be a community school, we are atheists and don't believe religion should have a place in schools unless in a strictly historical sense).

Undecided, however, about whether to keep him out of RE part of the curriculum as well, and interested in the experiences of people who have done this, or considered doing it but then decided not to. Do you feel your DC missed out? What did they do instead? Did they still get to take part in debates about moral issues?

Don't want this to turn into a debate about whether religion should have a place in schools, it's been done to death and you won't change my mind on that one!

But AbbeyA, I think many of us are upset not by the broadly Christian content of assemblies (which generally amounts to singing hymns and saying the Lord's prayer IMO), but by the presentation of Christianity as the factual position in Religious Education lessons, with other religions, if mentioned, down as 'what other people believe'.
I know that we all need to press for a change in the law, but equally, this is the 21st century, and surely schools have a responsibility to reflect the diversity of beliefs and non-beliefs of the community around them.

AbbyA - I am fullly aware of that law, and think it should be scrapped straightaway.

Perhaps it might if scraped more quickly if sensible Head teachers, gazing over the heads of their christian, sikh, muslim, hindu ,jewish and athiest children in an inner-city London primayry, didn't take the only reasonable option and flout it.

I do not see that schools or the NC have to be Christian in the light of the relationship between church and state. Religion isn't mandatory in other state provided services. I could cite a list of reasons why parliament (both houses) choose to maintain it - but it doesn't follow as a structural imperative, imo. It's a choice of the ruling hegemony.

Schools have a responsibility to obey the law. How can you have collective worship and not worship anything. If you read my cut and paste bit you will see that the Head and Governing body would have a difficult job to opt out of Christian worship.Some get around it by the 'some people believe' clause.

Blu-you actually have to change the law. A school doesn't have to teach Maths, there would be an outcry if they didn't, but they don't have to. RE is the only subject that has to be taught by law. A Head has enough of a difficult job these days without flouting the law!

I agree - the law should be changed - and i suggested the OP write to her MP in my earliest post on this thread.

I think a good deal of flouting goes on in DS's school, though. And many that I have done projects in. And i thnk the governors tha I know would support wholesale flouting, too.

A lot of flouting goes on and that is why you get the differences between schools, but you can't assume that schools won't have a Christian ethos just because they are not church schools. If you feel strongly about it you need to ask questions before you send your DC.
I think it is healthy for DC to have all beliefs and make up their own mind, it doesn't follow that because you are an atheist they will be too any more than the DC of Christian parents has to be a Christian-it is exactly like telling them that they have to vote conservative because you are a conservative family. Not exposing them to different beliefs and opinions is very narrow minded IMO. The home is going to have much more influence than sitting in assembly 5 mornings a week.

I have to say I think it's a bit weird that all schools have to have a Christian act of worship. I am RC and all mine went to Rc primary - but the two that have gone on to secondary go to non church schools and they sing hymns/say prayers and go to church at the end of term - I would find this odd in the extreme if I wasn't religious, as most people aren't. RS at secondary is very much taught as a point of view though - and I'm pretty sure covers atheism as well? I think you would have to check what was covered and the manner in which it was covered and then decide if this was acceptable.I am fairly religious but don't see why the law can't be changed to allow everybody respect for their beliefs.

It isn't odd littlebear. They are state schools and C of E is the state religion. It will most probably stay the same unless the state is separated from the church.

Athesism is a religon. Its a complete act of faith to be so sure that anything to do with worthshipping Gawd is b*lloX!

Some people believe in lots of gods, some people believe in none. One of my son's friends believes reincarnation, another thinks that Mohammad was God's prophet. Religon makes the world a colourful place and has good and bad affects on the human race. Having RE lessons gives a child an understanding of why half the world's wars starts. (Ie. wars that are not about Americans wanting Arab oil)

It is more or less guarenteed that your child will believe exactly what their parens believe until the age 12 or 13 when hormones kick in. I think that taking such an extreme stance is likely to turn your child into a born again christian in their teenage years. In the short term your child will stand out like a sore thumb and be bullied.

"Athesism is a religon. Its a complete act of faith to be so sure that anything to do with worthshipping Gawd is b*lloX!"

Actually I base my view of the universe on science, which requires empirical proof rather than blind faith.

"Religion makes the world a colourful place and has good and bad affects on the human race."

This I agree with, but I can't imagine that RE lessons at primary school would give anything like a balanced view that includes the bad that some people do in the name of religion. I stand to be corrected on this, however.

"In the short term your child will stand out like a sore thumb and be bullied."

So we should teach our children that they must fit in with everyone else, and mustn't ever stand out, or else they'll be bullied?

"Actually I base my view of the universe on science, which requires empirical proof rather than blind faith."

Science does not have any evidence for or against the existance of God. There is no conclusive proof that God does or does not exist. If you are going to be strictly scientific then you would be agnosic.

Blind athesim is a very brave position. Why take a strong stand against something you think doesn't exist? What harm does being in the navity play or singing the odd hymn to a god that doesn't exist cause?

Surely if you were not scared of relgion then you would treat it rather like pretending the tooth fairy or father christmas exists.

I think that you should be open minded and allow DCs to be exposed to all different opinions and beliefs. I find it narrow minded to be so entrenched in your own view that you don't want your DC to be in an assembly. There seems to be a huge fear from some posters that with one word from a vicar they will have an evangelical Christian as a DC! Children are very discerning-they work things out for themselves. I agree with ReallyTired, science has no evidence one way or the other.

Meg - I'm with you 100%!

There is total lack of understanding that what people like you and me object to is not learning about religion. It is that learning about Christianity is done in a "this is what WE (ie us white british folk) believe and it's true" way.

And every other religion is taught in the "this is what OTHER people believe and as we are not other people we can't help but imply it's not true!"

So it's "they believe - in their foreign country" when it's Hinduism but "we believe- in our country" when it's Christianity. It's so subtle I truely believe that the staff do not realise they are doing it!

My children have been taught by teachers who have stopped videos on "other" religions to point out that re-incarnation (for example) is not true. By a teacher who shouted at badly behaved children that they only have one chance in life so get working as that re-incarnation stuff they were learning about is just a made up story.

The list goes on.

I did exclude my children from RE at junior level - after asking if my child could sit in the library and work rather than go on the 3rd visit to a Baptist church (and that was after the 2 visits to the CofE church). The head teacher wrote me a letter saying it was religious intolerance like mine that would lead to World War 3 .

By secondary level I asked my children what they wanted to do - and they sat through RE lessons reporting back the lunacy of the majority of the teaching but enjoying some (the buddhist RE teacher was a blessing!)

Really Tired - you don't need conclusive proof that something does not exist for it to be scientifically accepted that it does not. It is impossible to "prove" the non-existence of something. I know the tooth fairy does not exist but I could not prove it to you.

We are atheists and the only available primary school is ardently CofE. After consideration, we have not withdrawn ds from any aspect of school life as this would not be fair on him. However, at home we continue to teach that christianity is the belief of some people and not ours and when asked questions like "how did Jesus rise from the dead?" we will tell him that in our view that is just silly and people can't do that.

Religious observance in schools has been justified on the basis that it does no harm. Really? It is utter nonsense to asert that organised religion does no harm when throughout history it has been responsible for vast numbers of deaths.

I guess most of the atheists on here had a more or less Christian schooling. My parents, both atheists, let me attend assembly (including prayers and hymns) as well as being in RE lessons. I once even asked to go to Sunday School - mum took me, but I never asked to go back because it was boring. I don't really remember it, but I'm sure my parents must have subtly balanced out the messages I received at school (and Brownies, and at friends' homes) because I abandonned the idea of god very early on. I would accept a similar education for my kids because I'm glad that I know the poetry of the Lords Prayer, and I do better in pub quizzes because I have a rough idea about which books are in the Bible, and huge swathes of English literature make more sense with a basic knowledge of Christianity.

Most atheists value skepticism - the ability to question what you're told, and school worship and RE is excellent practice for a budding atheist! Of course, atheists may have to offer their children reassurance on subjects like hell, but it's possible to be incredibly reassuring when you know there's really no risk at all. I can see that this would be more of a problem for kids with a more active imagination than mine, but I hope my kids will learn at school exactly what they're up against!

The problem doesn't just exist for atheists but for anyone with a different religion to the 'accepted' Christianity.

I have stated before that I am more than happy for my children to learn about all religions, in fact I actively encourage it. I do strongly object however to the 'this way is the right way' attitude of some RE teachers at primary level. As a Pagan I have also had to battle against my children telling me that I am evil 'because the teacher said so'. Young children have great faith in what they are told in school, I shouldn't have to fight against that.

I don't see that it is scientifically accepted that God does not exist. Where have you got that from? Scientists are like the rest of society, many don't believe but many eminent scientists have a deep religious faith. I have just googled it and found the following:

'In the US, according to a survey published in Nature in 1997, four out of 10 scientists believe in God. Just over 45% said they did not believe, and 14.5% described themselves as doubters or agnostics. This ratio of believers to non-believers had not changed in 80 years. Should anybody be surprised? A lot of people are surprised. I think people have grown up to believe that science and Christianity are at loggerheads.'

I firmly believe that at school teachers should make it clear that 'this is what Christians believe'(difficult for some because this country has a Christian culture). However atheists should make it clear to their DC that it is their belief; to equate God with the tooth fairy is ludicrous IMO.

Well I will be getting involved in campaigns to get rid of 'daily worship in schools. FFS why on earth should kids have to waste their time pretending to talk to something that isn't there? If you want to teach your kids crap about iimaginary supernatural beings, there's no shortage of places to act out superstitious rituals along with the rest of the deluded: why should it be enforced on schoolchildren any more than on bus conductors, hospital staff or chefs?
I have no particular objection to religious education ie these are what the different beliefs of the main myth-systems include (you can't understand much of the world unless you understand where the mythologies come from) though it unfortunately needs keeping an eye on to make sure the relevant teacher isn't a nut peddling toxic sectarian bullshit, for instance.

AbbeyA - I'm not joining the debate - just pointing out that those are US figures and the UK ones are very different. Although I can't find them at the minute...

I can't find UK figures but there are a lot of UK scientists who believe in God. I managed to find:

'ARE SCIENTISTS ATHEISTIC?
The media love confrontation - it's good for viewing figures and sales. A few vocal scientists, given a disproportionate amount of air time and column inches, often give the impression that scientists are a bunch of atheists. But there is no evidence that they are any more unbelieving than the rest of society.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
Many of the greatest scientists in history believed in God: Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Pasteur, Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo, to name but a few. Today there are plenty of scientists who are committed Christians. One UK organisation, Christians in Science, has members and contacts numbering some 1500 scientists, including university staff, scientists in industry and science teachers. Other such organisations also exist. But that is not 'news', so they receive little publicity.'

If you read this properly it is not just scientists in history but scientists today-as I said the same cross section as society.
I find madamez views very narrow minded.How can you possibly know for sure? I think that you should tell your DCs your beliefs but leave their minds open to alternatives.
I am not posting as a committed Christian-I just don't like closed minds where people tell DCs that God is the same as the Easter bunny!

AbbeyA, interesting life you must lead. How can you know for sure that elves won't steal your underwear, giant killer invisible frogs leap out of your toilet bowl and assault your bottom, oh, and your computer come to life and dance round the house singing hurtful songs about you? Just because there's no evidence doesn;t stop it being true you know...