Has anyone completely withdrawn their DC from RE at primary school? Experiences pls...

[MegBusset]

it's a long way off for us to start worrying about it but just wondering what people's experiences were. We will definitely withdraw DS from the 'act of worship' bit when he goes to school (will definitely be a community school, we are atheists and don't believe religion should have a place in schools unless in a strictly historical sense).

Undecided, however, about whether to keep him out of RE part of the curriculum as well, and interested in the experiences of people who have done this, or considered doing it but then decided not to. Do you feel your DC missed out? What did they do instead? Did they still get to take part in debates about moral issues?

Don't want this to turn into a debate about whether religion should have a place in schools, it's been done to death and you won't change my mind on that one!

I can't understand why you would want to withdraw your DC from RE lessons-as an atheist are you frightened that they will believe in God? I think that you give them the facts and let them make up their own mind, this means that DCs of practising Christian parents may become atheists and vice versa but it is their decision and not up to you to dictate what they should or shouldn't believe in. It is very narrow minded to say that you don't want them to even know about different religions. Withdrawing from assembly is a bit sad for the DC because they miss out on presenting of certificates, celebrating successes, class plays etc because it is much too difficult to get them in for bits.

Do you have 'educate together' schools in the UK? What is there for primary school multi-denominational education?

Hmm, I would love dd to be in a school where religion - and specifically christianity - was presented as 'some people believe in'. She is not in a church school, just the local community primary. They pray twice a day, and christianity is presented as fact.
I haven't withdrawn her from assemblies or RE parts of lessons (she is in yr 1, but they have been doing bible stories etc since nursery/reception) as I don't think its reasonable to her to single her out in this way.
But I really, really object to it. Other than home schooling sending her to an independent primary more than 10 miles away (which I wouldn't do) I don't see any alternative, as from discussion with other parents all the two other 'local' village schools are just as religious 'because it is Welsh culture'. Well, I don't see the chapel & church full every sunday. In fact most of the chapels are shut.
My only consolation is that I went to an equally religious primary school, again because it was the local village school so there wasn't much option, and I remained a convinced atheist throughout.

It sounds as though the OP is not sure of what goes on in RE lessons as opposed to acts of worship and I agree with whoever said it would be a good idea for her to look at the curriculum before making up her mind.

I think before people start jumping on her for not wanting her children even to learn facts about religion rather than how to do it they should perhaps establish that that's actually what she means!

And chocolatepeanut - why raise your eyebrows at the idea that someone might not want religion taught as truth? I mean how would you determine which religion they should be taught is true if their parents don't follow a religion?

my friend at school was withdrawn from morning assembley and re by her parents and she had a bit of a tough time because of it, some other kids made fun of her, called family odd ect, she now (and at the time) wishes her parents had simply left her to join in with all the other kids (her parents also insisted she had no part in the nativity play that kind of thing).
I do agree that religion should not play a part in school life, but while it does i wouldnt want to single my child out as the different one, so i will let my dd attend assembly, re ect and explain what we believe at home.

Not clear there - I have no problem with learning about religion in general, in fact I would love dd to learn about the religions of the world at school. Because they don't we read books, discuss different religions etc at home. But many religions, not just one!

elizabethberesford - but in some areas church schools are the only 'choice'.

us atheists don't like that but we have to send our kids to school!

or should we be forced to travel further so that all those right-arm donators can go to the school they want?

Are there specific religions that you do not want your children to be educated about or is it the whole concept of religion that you don't want them to know about? If the latter it seems like quite a big hole to fill - from the point of view of them understanding other human beings how would you start to explain 'spirituality' in a broader sense? My daughter (9) is very interested in religions from a cultural point of view, altho' we are Christians she is very interested in Hinduism and Islam. I don't feel threatened by this and we have had a lot of interesting talks about why people think as they do inc. history, geography, feminism etc.. If you are content in your Atheism surely R.E. can't be that threatening if you can explain why you think what you do. The only kids at my school who sat out were Jehovah's Witnesses' and people thought their parents' were a bit weird and felt sorry for them. We didn't know the reasons for them being kept out we just noticed that they were 'different' - maybe it would be good to think thru' how your kids could explain sitting out to others. e.g. "I don't go to assembly because my parents don't believe in any religion" - or maybe something more positive. Would have thought Humanist Society might have something helpful on this.

not read whole thread but

Aheists like me do not want their dc's to be taught that a belief in God is the default position.

RE teaches comparitive religion (and that's being generous). But at it most liberal it teaches that all religions are equally valid. That we 'share' a God.

I do not believe in God. I do not believe it is rational to believe in God. I believe that all religions are equally mistaken.

That is why I would consider removing my child from RE.

As it stands, it is far more complex than that. In my DS's multi-cultural, multi-faith community school, the "celebration" of ALL religious festivals has become a point of liberal faith in itself, and frequently seems to be at the core of the curriculum. A huge part of the artwork, for example, is based on religious festivals.

No-one seems to have considered that the possibility tthat none of the festivals be celebrated.

Interesting thread. I have fleetingly considered this but the fear of my children being made to feel 'odd' stopped me. However, what concerns me still is that my children come home with a strong belief that all the stuff of the Bible is true. They are not apparently receiving the message that these are a set of beliefs rather than facts. Now, why is that?

Onebatmother has summed up how I feel, very well.

However, I am hopeful from reading most people's experiences that when the time comes, we will be able to come to a compromise with the school. It is interesting to see how widely the teaching seems to vary, though -- is there no national curriculum for RE in non-faith schools?

Well the assemblies in my dc's school are most definitely religious. They sing hymms, pray, have religious readings etc. I have seen this because parents attend acheivement assemblies each week. I would like RE to be presented as 'some people believe that...'. Several parents have written to the head (one about when her ds was forced to put his hands together and his head down in prayer) but the vicar from the local church 50 yrds away seems to live in the school.

By the way it is NOT a C of E school. It is the local village school.

A local village school with a historical base in the culture of this country presumably. One where people gather together and celebrate festivals, giving thanks as a community. Why the great need to get rid of that tradition? Is this country so over run by avid and intolerant Christianity? I think not. We have a historical source to all our lives that we seem to be in a great hurry to dispose of in this country unlike other countries where building on the past and appreciating their own culture is expected.

As for the assemblies, they are mostly moral tales etc in non faith schools and withdrawing is extremely unwise imo as would only mark child out unnecessarily.

Our school has a mixture of religous asemblies (the local minister attends or they bring in Christian groups) but other assemblies are non religious. My dc are withdrawn from the religous ones.
However, although I was advised taht in RE lessons they are taught about all faiths, what actually happens (as I have seen by looking at ds's work) is they teach "we believe this... Muslims (or Hindus etc) believe that". The automatic assumption being that all children are Christian.
I am also slightly disturbed that the "music" lessons at school are really hymn practise sessions. However it is a very small village primary with a fantastic atmosphere. I want my children to be part of thta so other than withdrawing them from the religious assemblies, they will continue to attend music and RE.

My dd has been very interested in learning about the beliefs of various groups of people. She doesn't believe any of it herself, but then nobody asks her to. Trips to the synagogue and the mosque and the local church are all interesting to her, as are trips to the archaeological museum. She is learning about people. It is not presented as "us" and "them".
I am actually a Christian myself (the only one in the family), but I am very happy that she is getting such a good chance to get an unbiased view from outside and the freedom to make her own mind up. And even if she does choose one faith (whichever it may be), I would still think it an enormous advantage that she has learnt to understand about other faiths.
I wouldn't let her miss RE for the world.
But I did promise her that is she ended up going to the local catchment school- which has recently been taken over by a Christian sect- I would let her miss assembly.

Ah but you are one of the good ones twinset

At our primary (not church school, urban) they celebrate a strange mix of holidays (Diwali, Shrove Tuesday, Chinese New Year spring to mind) whilst ignoring plenty of others. Assemblies vary but the children are expected to bow their heads and recite the Lord's Prayer at the end, regardless of the assembly content. DS1 was told off for refusing to do so.

I objected to the Head who suggested I withdraw my DSs from the assemblies. I had no objection to the assembly contents, just the enforced praying so I stood my ground and insisted that my sons should simply be allowed to sit quietly whilst others prayed. Took a bit of arguing but he did agree to it. I shouldn't have had to have that argument though.

Haggisaggis - I suspect from your name that you are in a similar position to us. Small village in Scotland, only one primary school. Not supposed to be religious, but is.

StGeorge - we have had the issue about enforced praying as opposed to sitting quietly. We were told that if we wanted to withdraw DS1 from religious worship one of us would have to come up to the school whenever that took place and sit with him (we both work full time). It took us two years to reach an agreement that he could just sit quietly.

It all came to a head on the ski-ing trip when DS1 and his friend (who at the time was claiming to be rastafarian - don't ask) were segregated into a separate bedroom with the head remarking that the non-believers could sleep together. Put 'jews' or 'blacks' into that sentence and you have a court case.

You can't separate Christianity from schools until state and church are separate. Cof E is the state religion. The Queen is defender of the faith and Head of State.You need to press for disestablishmentarianism. A non denominational school merely means that it is not affiliated to a particular denomination.It is the present law to hold daily collective worship. If you are not happy with it you need to join the National Secular Society and press for change.

No experience yet of secondary, still got Y6 to go with DS1

All maintained schools must provide daily collective worship for all registered pupils (apart from those who have been withdrawn from this by their parents). This is may be provided within daily assembly but the distinction should be made clear.

The head teacher is responsible for arranging the daily collective worship after consulting with the governing body. Daily collective worship must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character. The precise nature will depend on the family background, ages and abilities of the pupils. It is acceptable for schools to split the collective worship sessions over the school year to be 51% Christian and 49% other faiths or interests.

Most schools should be able to include all pupils in their act of collective worship. There may be exceptional cases, however, where, in view of the family background of some or all pupils, the head teacher and governing body feel that a broadly Christian act of worship is not suitable. In these circumstances, the head teacher can apply to the local Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education (SACRE) to have the Christian content requirement lifted. Before doing so, the governing body should consult the parents of pupils at the school. Collective worship can take place at any time in the school day and the whole school does not need to get together at the same time. Collective worship can be organised into form groups or year groups or whatever is appropriate for the school. It cannot be organised in faith groups unless a determination has been sought and granted by the local SACRE.

I just thought that I would copy this out, atheists always seem surprised that schools are broadly Christian. They have to follow the law.

How joyless it would be to celebrate NO festivals. What a victory for athiesm that would be............?!

I'm not a holy joe. I'm not sure there is a God. There probably isn't. But I find it distasteful to be so anti religion. I'm not sure why. Perhaps becuase believing in God is so absolutely harmless, and for some, MAY be a motive to be 'good'. It's not damaging to the psyche is it??

There are so many other things about your chldren's education that should be improved, campaigned for etc. pick your battles for the good of your child.