What should the school be doing about a child that is violent towards others in the classroom?

[CarGirl]

We're talking infant age here. One child is being increasing defiant towards the teacher and increasingly violent towards the other pupils. There have been 2 violent episodes in less than a fortnight in the class room (I mean something more than hitting).

What measures should be the school be putting in place to protect the other children in that class and also to help the violent child.

The school has just given the teacher a classroom assistant for half days only it just doesn't seem enough to stop what is going on?

Personally I think more specialist education is needed. My son was totally isolated at mainstream (he couldn't speak, he head an adult next to him the entire time, he wasn't allowed in assemblies, nor on school trips, teachers had no idea how to teach him. I don't think he got near another child) He shouldn't have been there but we were told he couldn't go to a special school. After 4 terms he transferred to a wonderful SLD/PMLD school where he is now part of a community with his peers. He accesses the community far more (swimming for example, Mc Donald's the supermarket).

Special schools can be more inclusive for many children than total isolation within a mainstream school.

Interesting Yurt...did the school support that decision, recommend it or did you have to push for it? (sorry being nosey now)

I think more and more children are diagnosed as SN because people are more aware actually. The reason that parents of SN kids give short shrift is because of the amount of crap they have gone through in the system and the last thing they need is the thought of other parents being disapproving of them because of their child. It's the flinching mentality and you are lucky that it does not affect you in that way. For me personally, it does and I feel very jumpy about things like this. Unlike you I have experienced judgmental people. I'm sorry that you can't stand phrases such as the one that you quoted of mine. I think it is very valid actually. Nobody is suggesting that normal children's needs are less important than SN's needs. I very much doubt that the parents of SN kids think that. However, it's a no-brainer that SN kids have more needs and therefore need more support.

Well that was the totally ridiculous thing. Every day when I picked him up and asked how it had gone I was told 'fine'. My son can't talk at all so I tried very hard to get a home school book going- which didn't really happen.

Then we had the first annual review and I didn't recognise the child being written about. He sounded like a wild animal. The actual meeting (with 12 people in the room- if you have that many in the room you know it's not going well!) confirmed to me that they didn't have the faintest idea what they were doing.

So after the meeting I ran the Ed psych and asked if I could ask her opinion. "Do you think they're coping with him?' "er no" came the reply. I then asked the NHS SALT the same question - same reply. So I asked if we could move to special school. Yes of course, visits to look at 2. one was perfect, they had a place - he went forward at the next panel and started 6 weeks later.

The next annual review (2 terms later) was lovely.

Point is the communication with the school was dreadful. They were very cagey. I only began to get an inkling because once I received the 'animal' report I rang someone I trusted and put her in the very awkward position of asking her to tell me exactly what was going on in there. She did and I was horrified.

That's fantastic that your son is settled like that yurt. It's a fine line as to whether a child is better in mainstream or a specialist school. I don't believe my son would do as well at a specialist school but I did look into it.

Oh and point being NO-ONE TOLD ME!!!

Other parents weren't bothered, I think they quite liked him (and he wasn;t allowed anywhere near their children). But the school didn't tell me how dreadfully it was going.

I think in part this stems from the SN Code of Practice. Mainstream schools are not allowed to refuse a child a place on account of disability, or even on account of not being able to cope. They are only allowed to refuse if the child's presence would be detrimental to the other children. But if that happens because they're cocking up then they're on dodgy ground. They were very defensive on the whole though which didn't help.

I think there's something wrong with the system when a severely autistic, non-verbal child aged 4 isn't even allowed to consider a special school.

Now of course I'd tell them not to spout such nonsense and to show me the schools, but you learn that sort of stuff as you go along.

I am always suspicious of schools that say they have very low rates of SN. It may be true but it also might be that they are crap at recognising it, dealing with it or getting the support.

Although conversely, I am concerned about DS's likely primary where they seem ridiculously eager to get a SN label on a child as it means extra funding. Poor handwriting is a SN there.

Not on the same scale as yurt, but noone told me that Liverpool has a specialist ICAN (language) nursery. By the time I found out, it was too late to benefit him (obviously he may not have been eligible, but still a wasted potential opportunity). And noone has told me that language units exist - I only know about them because of MN.

very quick hijack to pick your brain Yurt, if you don't mind - am very happy with DS nursery, he will be in exact same class as nursery in reception with same teachers who seem pretty switched on wrt language problems. I am wondering whether instead of pushing for lang unit now, whether it's worth seeing how m/s pans out, and then rethinking after a term or so in reception, as to whether he would be better out of m/s by year one?

?Why the hell should another dc (and their parents) put up with another childs difficulties??. No-one said that parents just have to ?put up? with such treatment. Often when schools say they are dealing with an issue, they are, it?s just that to get professionals involved takes time, and really, you can?t just say ?oh little johny hits other kids, let?s employ another TA to supervise him constantly to make sure he doesn?t do it again.?. How many TA?s would the school need to employ to supervise every child who has hit another child? Because although most children aren?t that violent, a lot of children do, at some point in their school career, lash out at one of their peers.

There need to be processes in place to assess whether a child, A: has a specific sn which manifests itself in violent outbursts and thus needs additional support, or B, is just a naughty child who is prone to violent behaviour and needs to be dealt with in a more disciplinarian way.

But these processes take time. And in the meantime that child is still entitled to an education. And in the meantime the parents are most likely still heavily involved in the process, except they probably don?t want the rest of the school gossiping about what may, or may not, be wrong with their child, or speculating about whether they just want a label to excuse their child?s apawling behaviour, because some parents really do think like that.

I do think sometimes there?s a case for advising others of a child?s disability. Because whereas with a physical disability it?s visual and there is no doubt, with a disability such as ASD or a learning difficulty, it?s not always immediately apparent. But that decision should be made by the parents, and the parents alone. It?s not for the school to decide who should, and who shouldn?t be told.

Hard to tell TC as provision varies (there is some specialist provision locally that would have been totally unsuitable for ds1).

Ask other parents - they're your best resource locally really. Do bear in mind though that it can be harder to get your child into units etc as they get older as they get full.

thanks yurt, very sensible points.

Mucha...I understand what you're saying and I personally do appreciate the fact that having to fight hard to get your childs needs recognised and supported, means your gloves are always on ready to defend. But you do realise that is doing exactly the same to posters on this board with a lesser knowledge of SN as judgemental parents have done to you?

Hmm, don't quite think it is the same. It all comes down to empathy and I don't believe at any point that I showed a lack of that towards non SN children whereas it would seem that judgmental parents certainly do.

It is worth rememberinga s well that most of the parents of SN kids (as sopposed to Sn parents- some of us are, some of us aren't, much like any other posters!) also usually have nt children that we adore and support just as much as our others- I have 1 child out of 3 that is NT and a baby due (well, a few days ago actually) that hopefully will be NT; others have more NT kids than Sn. But becuase you do have to fight more for your Sn kids you can (or rather no generalissations- I can) get more used to defending them.

BTW Ingles, if you ever want a chat about dyscalculia do find me- have it myself and managed to get a GCSE equivalent finally 3 years ago after learnig a few yechniques.

I don't think Ingles has suggested that school should breach confidentiality or divulge information on a family situation off their own bat.

However, it is perfectly possible for the family to give the school permission to give out information about an SN child's actual condition and how this might affect the other children/useful ways for them to cope etc.

E.g. "T has Aspergers. When he does X, he is not trying to be nasty on purpose; it's because he sees things in this way/finds it difficult to deal with this type of situation. If you notice T doing X, then it's a good idea to avoid doing Y (e.g. getting too close) as it might make him feel threatened".

If this is done, it can make everybody's situation easier. The other children would feel both more sympathetic towards X and be safer, because able to avoid potentially dangerous behaviour around X. And they would learn something that might make them stop tut-tutting around SN children in the supermarket years later. On the whole, people tend to be much less fearful and judgmental if they understand something.

My dd has a physical disability which does impact on the other children's lives, and it would be foolish for me to pretend it didn't. She basically couldn't get through a school day without the other children's help and goodwill. What I have done is to give each new teacher a letter, detailing exactly what I would like the class to be told (in the absence of dd). Things like "X can collapse suddenly. It may look like she's putting it on, but she isn't actually. If it happens, then these are good things to do..."

This is not breaching confidentiality, as I decide how much information is to be divulged. Nor does it mean that I feel I have to let anyone in on the intimate details of my family life.

It was the suggestion of the school that I should do this (though they made it clear it was entirely up to me). It was a helpful suggestion.

Dont judge the parent.....Judge the school.... My DS is aggressive and violent at school and YES he has hurt other children. We odnt have a diagnosis of anything for DS BUT he is now in his second MS school and they have placed him in a unit temproarily because he was a health and saftey risk.
Whos to blame???? I know there is something wrong with my little boy, Im a good mum but no matter how much a discipline my son he still behavs this way... even the school recognise he is not in control of his actions BUt they cannot cope!
I have had to fight HARD to get a full time statemtn based purely on my DSs behaviour issues, My son would be best suited in a small special behavioural unit BUT without a diagnosis he cant access one.
WHOS TO BLAME? IME the LEA have alot to answer to. My DSs MS sya they cannot cope and this is the second MS school to say that, depsite this the LEA still wont accept he needs specialist help from an autistic unit because we dont have a diagnosis and will be moving him to his third mainstream school soon.
As the mum of the 'naughty' boy i get pointed at/talked about/completely balnked in the playground. I know other parents have complained about my sonbecause the head told me and that makes me fell awful as im killing myself trying to get the help and support my son so obviously needs.
Please dont judge the mum.

cory- schools won't always do that though.

For example I was quite happy for the school to explain to the children that ds1 has problems understanding (he is severely autistic). But they wouldn't. Because they wouldn't he then wasn't allowed to do anything different (such as use the disabled loo- he was terrified of the hand dryer in the infants one so wouldn't go in it- hence he refused to use the toilet at all at school). He wasn;t allowed to use the disabled loo by the way because 'it would have been unfair on the other children'

If something is explained to them I have found younger children to be very accepting - but ds1's mainstream school refused. Crazy- most of the children noticed he couldn't talk

I'm working with the school supposedly to put together an ASD awareness apckage for the kids (which hopefully will filter up to parents), we used to offer our volunteers something similar at homeStart. However, the existing SENCO goes on adoption leave after Easter so I imagine it's going to be delayed by 6 months. I'm happy to work with them in that way though, but it has to be with somebody you trust- I certainly wouldn't have given the SENCO at the Infants any confidentiality leeway: she telephoned the Paed and asked for our file claiming she ahd our permission (hardly, about 50% it is about her incompetetence!), and when I tok the DS's to Church on Good Friday she pointed at me, turned to her Mum and said 'that's the one I was talking about'..... I'm hardly going to give her any flexibility!

Bonkerz- don't feel bad, poeple do judge but you have to learn to ignore them. DS1's school refused to accept his DX, and tried toa ctively rpevent him obtaining one at all, but once he moved to the right school they could see what was happening and it's been easier, even if the behaviours haven't worsened: instead of wanting to blame someone for ds1, they are actively working to keep him. I know there have been letters to school etc from other parents because they tell me, but they don't name names (probably wisely with my hormones LOL ) which makes the school accessible to other parents which is important, but equally they simplya ccept the letter, thank the aprents fro bringing it to their attention, explain that we are working together to deal with things as best as possible, and then reveal no more. I do tend to disclose his dx's myself, but I feel that's my choice,, and it has resulted in some comeback (a child with ADHD who follows ds1 around taunitng him that he ahs AS becuase I thought his Mum was a friend and disclosed too much- i9ncluding the fact we get DLA- and she thinks we're 'luckier' than her ).

It si somewhat easier with ds3 as his SN is mroe obvious, not least due to the PECs book he carries! next term will be intersting though, as he will be full time a, no longer with his wonderfully supportive CM (sob), and with a new baby....

Thank you Cory / Yurt that's exactly what I wanted to say,... this dc was claustrophobic (sp)..., if it had been explained to the kids they might have had a bit more understanding of situtations that distressed him, or realised earlier when he was getting angry and frustrated. His carer would have been more than happy for this to be explained, I don't think it was even thought of. dc's were frightened of this boy, a little more understanding definitely could have helped.
Peachy, if you don't mind I will find you as this dyscalculia thing is a real struggle...

Yurt, that is weird. You'd have thought they'd have seen the obvious advantage of getting the other children to understand your ds' needs.

And about the disabled toilet- I hope you kicked up a big stink!

Our headteacher's excuse was that he wanted to keep the disabled toilet for visitors. Nice.

So they had dd crawling on her hands and knees into the ordinary cubicles, as her wheelchair wouldn't fit in. She didn't tell me this for a long time, knowing that I would totally blow up.

Come to think of it, when dd was in infants school, I think I actually went in and did the first talk myself (I'm coming, folks, don't you even think of trying to stop me!)

Peachy, that sounds so typical- the interminable delays! And that first SENCO sounds horrible.

Peachy, yurt, sorry to hijack, but just wanted to thak you for some advice you gave me a few months ago regarding DD and a child in her nursery on the spectrum. Things came to a fairly awful head, for everyone, but has been resolved now and both children are happy at nursery again. I got more help/advice here than I did from nursery, who although were nice seemed clueless!

oh you're there
I'll post a thread in SN...

The mainstream school was keeping the disabled toilet for the teachers so the only severely disabled child in the school wasn't allowed access to it

I did request that he be allowed to use it but they wouldn't. This all came to a head a few weeks before he was leaving so I didn't push it.

Knew his new school was going to be the right one when we took him to meet his new class teacher. He ran straight into the class toilets and used them! First time he'd used a school toilet in over a year. Even better the room next to the toilet contained a washing machine.

Glad it got sorted MSL.