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What should the school be doing about a child that is violent towards others in the classroom?

127 replies

CarGirl · 29/03/2008 18:48

We're talking infant age here. One child is being increasing defiant towards the teacher and increasingly violent towards the other pupils. There have been 2 violent episodes in less than a fortnight in the class room (I mean something more than hitting).

What measures should be the school be putting in place to protect the other children in that class and also to help the violent child.

The school has just given the teacher a classroom assistant for half days only it just doesn't seem enough to stop what is going on?

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mrz · 30/03/2008 16:23

If the children really are at risk of harm and Behavioural Support is unlikely to be available the school can apply to Crisis Response

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Peachy · 30/03/2008 16:29

Perhaps that doesn't stand here (in Wales)? not sure but I do know ds1 is exceptionally aggressive and has to have 1-1 all breaks to cope, but we're on a long waiting list to see behavioural support.

however,a s the last behavioural Suppoer Advisor we saw suggested we lock him in his room when he's aggressive for the whole night (he was in Yr 1), I don't hold outt supreme hope anyway. Fortunately he is statemented for AS/ hfa, dyslexia, learning difficulties and SPD.

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CarGirl · 30/03/2008 16:43

tensmum, when my friend comes to me crying because their child has been attacked (again) I shall tell them then it's nothing to do with me until my child is their class (quite possible as of September) as until then I've no need to find out what responsibilities the school has towards the pupils, because presumably my child is at no risk of being attacked in the playground or the shared area or cloakrooms between the two classrooms

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Mucha · 30/03/2008 17:12

But cargirl, if your child has not been affected, then you really should not get involved. Even though it is your friend, it is still hearsay and it is up to her to talk to the school about how her own child is affected. You can't possibly know how the school are really dealing with it and it sounds like you are demonising a child who (let me get this right) is six? A six year old child needs support. Something like this is highly unlikely to be brushed under the carpet.

Sorry, but this kind of thing really gets me mad because of what I have been through.

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yurt1 · 30/03/2008 17:18

No behavioural support are centrally funded- but usually provide drop in support workers - few times a week maximum for a short period for severe cases- they have an advisory role usually- not a full time 1:1.

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yurt1 · 30/03/2008 17:21

cargirl- I might have missed a post, and don't have time to read back Are you a governor or something (or work in the school?) If just another parent I don't think you can get involved really- one thing you can't do is advocate on behalf of other's kids (which makes it difficult when trying to increase SN funding etc as you can only ever argue from your own child's pov. If you try and move beyond that you'll find they'll refuse to discuss other children).

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CarGirl · 30/03/2008 17:32

I have posted on behalf of the parents whose children have been affected. I have not spoken to the head, I do not intend to speak or write to the head. The other parents are frustrated that they feel that the school is doing very little to protect the children and I am trying to establish how long it would take for the school to act on it etc.

A lot of the information given has been helpful - it can take a long time to get help, sometimes the school has to fund, sometime it is centrally funded, the parents of hurt children to have the right to expect the school to protect their children, if the school is trying to ignore the problem then the parents putting it in writing to the head will make it more difficult to ignore.

I'm not involved, I don't want to be involved (I hope my children don't get attacked because then I would be involved wouldn't I) but when other parents are upset and frustrated it is helpful to be able to make suggestions/offer reasons why perhaps things haven't change yet to stop them demonising the child.

Obviously I am a bad person for trying to find out how the system works and why the school have been saying for 2 months that the situation is being dealt with when from the other parents POV it isn't being dealt with because their children are still getting attacked.

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mrz · 30/03/2008 17:35

If Cargirl has been asked for advice by a friend she is perfectly entitled to give her friend advice but obviously can't approach the school herself unless as she says there is an issue of danger to her own child

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cory · 30/03/2008 17:54

The way I understand it, Cargirl is simply getting involved in the sense of trying to find advice for the other parents- because she is the one on Mumsnet. Sounds reasonable enough to me.

What the other parents should do is to speak to the head.

It is a sad fact that it can take very long for a school to access help for a child with difficulties.

Another sad fact is that not all schools are very diligent in asking for help for a troubled or SN child (I could tell you horror stories!). If the latter is the case, then the affected parents will need to keep badgering. It is in the interest of the violent child as much as anybody else that a problem should be identified and not swept under the carpet.

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ingles2 · 30/03/2008 18:11

Actually I don't think it's reasonable to attack Cargirl,..she's asked a perfectly reasonable question. What SHOULD the SCHOOL be doing....
every time someone posts a thread like this the parents of dc's with SN attack the poster. As the mother of 2 ds's, 1 with mild SN's I really don't see how every thread can be applied to your own circumstances.
Parents of supposedly "normal" dc's have just as much right to make sure their childrens needs are meet as those with SN. If I had my time again Cargirl, I would listen to what people are saying about dc's with SN (that affect other dc's) and (this is the important bit) how the school are helping them.
In our situation, the hearsay about this child was kind and the actual situation was much much worse. Even though I'm very pleased this child now has his needs met and is happy...But what about the children who were attacked and bullied,..who had to leave that school in yr 1 and 2 to start again at another school. Is that fair on them? No,... it's not fair on anyone really,..and whose fault is it? The schools!
So please can everyone just look at both sides of the coin, EVERY child is entitled to a happy time at school regardless of their needs and every parent is entitled to find out as much information as they wish to make that choice for their child.

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yurt1 · 30/03/2008 18:21

No-one's attacking anyone.

I was asking what her role was within the school because if she was a govenor or employee then there would have been other routes perhaps for her to take. And she could have got involved in a way she can't as a parent.

Not an attack- just from my experience of trying to bring up system failings on behalf of other children.

What I'm saying is that when I've had to fight for something for my son I quickly learned that there was zero point doing it on behalf of other children at the same time because there will be a refusal to discuss the other children at all. I'm not saying it's right that you can't do it, I'm just saying that you won't be allowed to.

That's not an attack, it's sharing knowledge.

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Miggsie · 30/03/2008 18:22

My Grandad used to say "freedom for all is freedom for none"...
I agree children with problems should be helped, but not to the detriment of other children who are having their lives made a misery.
Schools (and society as a whole) should have a policy and follow through with appropriate action to protect individuals from violence.

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yurt1 · 30/03/2008 18:22

(BTW lots of us witrh kids with SN have 'normal' children too)

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ingles2 · 30/03/2008 18:25

I wasn't refering to you Yurt or anyone here in particular actually...just a general sweeping statement
and if you look at my post you'll see I've got one of those normal kids and one of those SN's too!

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CarGirl · 30/03/2008 18:30

Mucha - most of this "hearsay" is direct from the parents of the child in question. There are several factors that are contributing to the current behaviour that we are aware of. This child needs help, the other children in the class need protecting, the school appear to not be putting in place what they said would to provide a solution, it isn't fair on any of the children.

Thank you to all of those who have a better idea how the system works, here's hoping that the parents continuing to go to the head about their own child's needs not being met will bring resolution asap, those who talk to me about it I will suggest putting it in writing from their child's POV only.

It seems very scarey that funding etc can vary hugely between different LEA's, lottery postcode strikes again.

Yurt - your posts didn't come across as an attack to me, very helpful tbh!

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yurt1 · 30/03/2008 18:42

"I agree children with problems should be helped, but not to the detriment of other children who are having their lives made a misery."

If they were being helped appropriately then the other children shouldn't have their lives made misery. There's an issue of underfunding, lack of resources and lack of trained staff. It's really very depressing.

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Mucha · 30/03/2008 18:47

When I said 'hearsay' I meant that were you to talk to the school yourself they would not listen as it does not refer to you directly, irrespective of whether or not it is true.

I guess I reacted at the earlier posts where you appeared to be commenting on parents' lack of discipline as a factor in the behaviour of the child as well as saying that it is not a case of ASD, just emotionally troubled. You can't possibly know this information unless you are one of the professionals involved with the child. However, it's great that you are concerned for the wellbeing of the other kids.

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CarGirl · 30/03/2008 18:51

yes Yurt it really is depressing for all those children who would thrive with the correct help & funding.

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ipanemagirl · 30/03/2008 19:00

cargirl, I would write a letter to the Head and cc it to the teacher, if possible it's best to say to the teacher that you're writing so she doesn't feel undermined.

In your letter, ideally be supportive of the school but assert that you need to feel that your child is safe in the school environment and if not, you simply cannot in good conscience send her to school.

The management team need to present some kind of strategy, the teacher should be able to describe it.

In my ds's school unfortunately the big guns don't kick in until the child is violent to the teacher. The other kids don't matter so much ironically! Appalling but true.

We had a proper exclusion last year for a child who physically attacked their teacher ( I feel for the child who lives in a one bedroom flat with mother father and 4 siblings, mother gets pg every year! Sorry to sound Daily Mail but part of me silently cries out 'get some contraception!' whenever I see the mother!) Any way the child was sent to a special unit and it cost our school a fortune. We have to take the money out of our main pot. That's why schools are so loathe. We don't get enough support with these extremely challenging children. Some teachers have said to me that kids like these simply do not belong in a mainstream school but gov policy leaves them there. What can the schools do? Local authorities dump more and more responsibility on schools and seem to support and help less and less.

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mrz · 30/03/2008 19:11

It can only get worse education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,2268260,00.html

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seeker · 30/03/2008 20:52

What sort of "nasty injuries" are we talking about?

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Peachy · 31/03/2008 09:37

'I agree children with problems should be helped, but not to the detriment of other children who are having their lives made a misery.'

Could I ask what you would suggest the alternative then? Should children with SN or EMD 9emotional behavioural disorders) be removed from the educational system, or placed in unit facilities? Because these palces don't suit them all and are not easy toa ccess- been trying for my ds3 (who has zero aggressive issues but other disability) for the alst 2 yeras now, to no avail- every time we get offered a place the school gets a threatened closure notice.

Surely the best way to support any child optimally (ie whilst recognising that for some this isn't possible) is with consistency of placement which is appropriate from the start, I would imagine that children with extra needs who get moved around beyond the minimum are more likely to struggle? I'd be happy for ds3 to access a unit (DS1 not so much, I feel the sort of palce they'd send him would simply make him worse) but only if he can stay in that unit, and not be switched about six months later again.

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seeker · 31/03/2008 09:57

And I really don't see how one disruptive child in a class of 6 year olds is going to make anyone's life a misery - there are 3 very difficult children in ds's class, and apart from the occasional explosion (not literal I hasten to add) which ds finds interesting, I don't think they have impacted negatively on the other children's experience. Rather the opposite, in fact - they have learned lots of lessons about tolerance, how good/bad behaviour affects others/how to manage difficult people which I think they will find useful.

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GooseyLoosey · 31/03/2008 10:07

Everytime I see a thread like this, I wonder if it is about ds. He can be very agressive . We are working on this with the school but I do worry about the judgements other parents are making about us.

One thing I find is that because ds is seen as a difficult child, he gets into more trouble than the other children do for doing the same things and what he does tends to be perceived in a negative light. I am not a blinkered parent and am the first to admit that there are problems, but when ds accidentally hits someone with a soft building block (his version and he does not lie - big thing for him), he is reprimanded for it and it is assumed by all that it was intentional - although when pressed, there was no reason for this. When another child intentionally throws one of said blocks at ds, nothing happens. What I am trying to say is that when a "problem child" does something, it can be magnified out of proportion and hard to tell what actually happened.

We have a lot of discipline in our house, so it is not that ds has not been taught rules, he just finds them hard to apply in a social context. I am absolutely aware of the issues and trying very hard to deal with them but if another parent came to me and criticised ds, I would defend him rather than agree with their criticims. Maybe this girl's mother is in the same position.

I find the possibility that a reception age child could be excluded horrifying, ds needs time to learn what is appropriate and what is not with relevant support. If he struggled reading he would be supported, social issues should be treated in the same way at 4 or 5.

All that said, I would be angry if someone was systematically hurting my child at school so I do sympathise. I am just trying to put the other side.

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Peachy · 31/03/2008 10:32

Sadly Goosey, ds1's reaqding issues are just as unsupported as his aggression- again because there is a huge waiting list (at 8 he can't yet spell his full first name, only six letters). I'm more concerned about his aggression though.

I don't understand why other parents think we, as the parents of kids with these problems, ignore the issue? That always seems to come across on these threads. DS1 has spent years attending therapiy clinics, having every kind of intervention we can possibly find. neiother of his brothers are remotely like him behaviourally, and it's clear to most poeple that he's anything but a bad kid- he just has no concept of social interaction whatsoever (it's very difficult becuase although we can clearly see whats gone wrong in a situation he cant- he will genuinely, for example, think he is under threat if someone is making a friendly tease). The school can't suggest anything we can do extra, the specialists cannot (we had to pull him from BIBIC because he was threatening the therapist before our alst attendance), and we get tenfold what he gives out at school because this si his safe environment- I have been knocked unconscious by him in public twice, and poor ds2 has a nightmare time of it. There are no services he can access to help him though, and I dread daily the day he decides to emulate ds1's behaviour at school- fortunately he's a sensitive sould and hasn't yet even attempted it.

Of course I understand how awful it must be for any aprent to see their child in danger at school, ds2 was bullied for a while and that was not nice to see and I approached the teachers as that is what i feel is apprpriate. But i wouldn't dream of approaching mum or alientaing her in any way: yet I stand alone at the school gates, getting the looks and talked about. I am the one referred to as the mum who can't sope when actually its quite the opposite- we even got turned down for support by social services because I cope too well!. People think I am not committed to helping with his education, yet I am on the PTA as Secretary- how does that work? And I am helping to develop packs with the SENCO for the aprents of toher children being diagnosed with spectrum disorders. Precisely because I try so ahrd to find solutions / work with ds1. Who by the way is a lovely little boy, just one that came with a set of problems neither he not I asked for.

of course anyone whose child is at risk in school should approach the school- it's your suty indeed, as parent / guardian. just- don't assume the issue isn't being addressed, or that Mum doesn't care, because I bet she does. if she seems a bit disinterested, she's probably not, she's probably exhausted from continuing supervision levels over 8 years that one wouldn't normally apply to the mosta ctive toddler- 2 hourly night checks anyone?

oh and if there are other siblings please don't ;et it affect how theya re treated too- ds2 (totally NT, sociable as they come) ahsn't had a party invite in years. I understand with ds1 although its sad, but I never take him to palces he's not specifically invited, but ds2 increasingly seems to be guilty by association which is a horrid thing for him to endure.

Hope that didn't come over as a rant- certainly wasn't intended to- just wanted to make the point from this perspective, and what ahs happened to us as the 'alienated family'.

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