What should the school be doing about a child that is violent towards others in the classroom?

[CarGirl]

We're talking infant age here. One child is being increasing defiant towards the teacher and increasingly violent towards the other pupils. There have been 2 violent episodes in less than a fortnight in the class room (I mean something more than hitting).

What measures should be the school be putting in place to protect the other children in that class and also to help the violent child.

The school has just given the teacher a classroom assistant for half days only it just doesn't seem enough to stop what is going on?

[GooseyLoosey]

Peachy - really? Am shocked about the lack of literacy support, how hard for you. Not a problem for us as ds is fairly bright, but we are starting to wonder if he might be on the spectrum with something like aspergers. I am shying away from doing anything at the moment as I wonder if another label will just make things harder for him (ie agressive, odd and the one whose got that syndrome thingy).

[Peachy]

I found a label got DS1 more help, but that does vary as to how your area operates. he wouldn't have any 1-1 without that diagnosis.

Dyslexcia support here works via a central LEA funded scheme, where Specific Learning Difficulty teachers run a course of sessions for a year, that's a good thing and apaprently works well- however, both of my older boys are on the waiting list and it's now over a year long, partly becuase of the fact that dyslexia is being picked up increasingly well (a good thing- Dh has been held back by having dyslexia and no name for it), and aprtly because there's no apparent system to ID need levels- ds1 needs input ASAP if he's going to ever achieve anything educatinally (and he has an IQ of 130 so has potential), whereas DS2's dyslexia dx is at best, we feel, tenuous and very mild.

[ingles2]

I'm sorry Peachy but I have to say, I personally totally disagree with you. I don't think people think you are ignoring issues. and I don't think that's how it comes across on these threads either. You only have to look a little further down this thread to see someone jumping on a poster, calling them smug, for asking a question.
I think that quite frequently parents are asked to understand the point of view of dc's with SN (that affect other dc's), but I'm not so sure it's true the other way around.
When we were dealing with this dc with severe SN's, no-one talked to the other parents about it. Our dc's had to sit in a small class with extreme and volatile aggression day after day. Every day there were injuries, but I can tell you, I don't think anything was done really until the teacher was injured.
What I think should have happened is that his condition was explained to us, so we could talk to our dc's, tell them it's not personal, what to look out for and how to help him. IMO a bit of knowledge and information can take you along way.
Obviously you are trying to get the best help possible for you child but I can reassure you that for whatever reason, that is not always the case.
I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant now...I don't mean it too.

[Peachy]

No one can talk to you about the child though- basic confidentiality. It doesn't mean theya re not taking it on board, all the same.

[ingles2]

I think thats ridiculous... so there's a problem, everyone knows there's a problem, no one discusses the problem, said problem affects a lot of children,...everyones unhappy!
Just brilliant!

[Peachy]

It's no different to a GP or Nurse though..... they can listen but not divulge, iyswim.

[ingles2]

I know what you're saying Peachy but it's not quite the same .... dc's were being bitten, kicked, punched, stabbed with pencils every day...so who's looking out for them?
If a patient abused a medic, they have every right to get said patient taken off their list,..
As I said earlier, my ds1 got on ok with this boy, so he would have been in a good position to try and help, steer him away from situations that would antagonise.
Also if the truth is never revealed for the sake of confidentiality it's not really very surprising that people "talk" in the playground is it?

[Mucha]

It's not even slightly ridiculous. What if that child was going through some major difficulties as a result of some very personal things happening within the family. Do you think it would be fair if all the parents in that child's class were told why he was angry or violent? The only thing that other parents should know if their child is being affected, is that the school is dealing with it.

Personally, I don't even slightly agree with excluding a young child. My son was threatened with exclusion in Year 2 but he benefited greatly from lots of professional support and it is for that reason that he is calm and coping very well within mainstream school.

[ingles2]

you don't need to know the whys and wherefores...just the actual situation..or do you think schools should brush it under the carpet and pretend it's not happening?
Which brings me back to my earlier post saying it's the schools responsibility

[Mucha]

If that is the case ingles2, then indeed the school has to work harder to make sure that behavioural support of some sort is in place. The thing you have to remember is that NO parent wants to have a child who acts like that and the last thing they need is 'talk' in the playground. It is absolutely mortifying when it happens to you, and I would dread the call from the school asking for me to pick him up early because of an incident.

I don't believe that a comparison with a patient in a hospital is an accurate one. These are children we are talking about, not adults. Are you suggesting that these kids should be removed from school instead of helping them to integrate within a normal classroom? Children cannot be damned and chucked on the scrapheap. These kids grow up to be adults and if are not helped may become those patients who abuse medics or other such things.

[Mucha]

On the contrary, schools in general never brush these things under the carpet. It is not in their best interest to do things like that. Just because parents are not aware of what is happening behind the scenes, that does not mean that nothing is being done. In my DS's class professionals actually came within the classroom to work with all the children specifically so that my son was not singled out, but most parents were not aware that this happened.

[ingles2]

Mucha I'm not sure what you're talking about, I didn't make the comparison with medics initally, Peachy did...
And No I'm not suggesting these children should be chucked out on the scrapheap... Have you read my posts on this thread?
In My situation the school did very little, 6 children in a year of 13 left, the SN dc child left and the situation was awful!
So, what do you suggest should be done to protect children who are being attacked by a child with SN every day? And to go back to the OP's question,..what should the school be doing?

[Mucha]

The way I read it, Peachy used the comparison in a different manner - she was referring to confidentiality. I think it is appalling that your school was unable to cope with the situation, but the mere fact that the child thrived in a different school proves that with the proper help and support a child can be helped. It's very sad for the kids who get caught up in this anger of course. The children in my DS's class all grew to understand him because the teachers explained to them what was happening and because professionals came into the classroom to work with everyone, not just my son. The other parents on the whole knew very little about what was happening.

[wannaBe]

why the hell should other parents be informed about one child's difficulties? Often children aren't diagnosed until they actually enter the education system, often it takes time, with assessments by various different professionals, and so no-one can be sure of exactly what is wrong. And how would you propose the school inform all these parents? letter home in bookbags? "dear parent, we would like to inform you that little johny is currently being assessed for and would ask you to bear with his behavior in the meantime.". Parents are bitchy enough as it is without giving them something else to gossip about. And gossip they will. How do you think that makes the parent of a child undergoing assessments feel to not only have to deal with the disapproving stares/comments of the other parents, but also the knowledge that those parents are well aware of what they might be going through, only they're not really aware what the parent is going through because they're not going through it.

[Mucha]

Thank you wannabe, my sentiments exactly. I am holding myself back from yelling those precise words!

[Unfitmother]

When my DS receives his 'official' diagnosis I will be very choosy about who I share that with. Definately NOT his classmates' parents.

[TotalChaos]

back to the original question - what should the school be doing - they should seeking appropriate support from ed psych/behaviour support as to what triggers the child and/or how to try and defuse a situation before explosion point. e.g. for some children with ASD, a safe place to retreat when wound up can work wonders. and of course looking for an appropriate level of 1 to 1 support and suprevision, including at breaktimes if necessary. of course the m/s environment even with full time 1 to 1 is not appropriate for all kids with SN, so another appropriate placement should be sought.

on the diagnosis point - I think it's wholly unfair to the child if parents and other children were made aware of the exact diagnosis - you could end up with a position where other children's taunting is the way a diagnosis is disclosed to the child

[ingles2]

posted by wannabe...why the hell should other parents be informed about one child's difficulties?
Ok, to put it bluntly...
Why the hell should another dc (and their parents) put up with another childs difficulties?

[ingles2]

and I'm talking about the situation we were in ONLY, I am NOT judging anybody elses child or situation

[ingles2]

And when my son receives his official diagnosis, I'll be telling everyone, because I really don't care what other people think!

[TotalChaos]

ingles - in answer to the question - why should parents put up with it - because our wonderful democratically elected government has shut down specialist provision and promoted inclusion without backing it up with the funding and training for mainstream schools.

[Peachy]

'Why the hell should another dc (and their parents) put up with another childs difficulties? '

bluntly?

because parents of SN kids contribute to the tax system too and their kids are entitled to an education as much as any NT child is.

[ingles2]

Wannabe / Mucha I'm interested that you haven't answered my question about what should be done to protect children who are being attacked every day... If as a parent your child had his eyebrow bitten off (this did happen) by a child with SN that weren't being dealt with by the school, what would you do?

[Mucha]

Ingles2, the school has a responsibility to get the proper specialist help. If I was that parent then naturally I would outraged and would write to the teacher and to the head to ask for something to be done. Similarly, I would also be completely mortified if I was the parent of the SN child and nothing was done by the school. I have actually sought out the parents whose child was hurt by mine in the past just to try and explain things because I felt so awful about it.

There just feels like there is an undercurrent to this line of questioning that the child in question should not be dealt with within the school. I honestly believe that kids with behavioural difficulties should be in mainstream schools because specialist schools can create a sense of isolation from peers, especially with borderline cases. It would be lovely to have utopian schools with model children but not one school is like this and because we live in a society, parents with 'perfect' children need to understand that other parents with SN kids or kids with behavioural difficulties need support, not to be told 'why should we put up with you?'

IMHO having that attitude would be a foolproof way of making sure the number of criminals increases in subsequent generations.

[ingles2]

Mucha you are totally wrong, there is no undercurrent to this line of questioning. I have already clearly stated that I am moving my ds's to the school this child is at, that this child is happy and settled and it is therefore proven in my eyes that the correct handling of severe SN in a mainstream school is perfectly possible. Just as my dyscaluclic / dyspraxic ds2 is perfectly able to be in mainstream school. It does bother me on these threads though the number of times parents of SN dc's (speaking as one myself) give very short shrift to people who post questions that may be worded slightly detrimentally to SN.
I have also found that very few people are judgmental to a childs behaviour, and very few are bitchy, but maybe it's just as I said...I really don't care.
I also can't stand phrases like this"because we live in a society, parents with 'perfect' children need to understand that other parents with SN kids or kids with behavioural difficulties need support, not to be told 'why should we put up with you?'
I think that is an outdated concept as more and more children are dx with "SN" every day. Every child has Special needs , whether they are G&T , "normal"! or SN, every child deserves empathy and support for what they are trying to achieve. I personally think posters on this board sometimes forget that.