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[bobsmum]

Ds is 5 and in P1.

I'm getting either phone calls or letters home about his appalling behaviour at school weekly or sometimes more frequently.

He is rude, defiant, disobedient and disruptive in class.

When reprimanded he either answers back, makes faces and rude noises or tantrums with shouting, crying and screaming.

Various options such as losing time on a fun activity or being taken out of class altogether have no effect on him. If anything remotely good happens afterwards or on the same day then he will turn to me, smile and and say "See even if I do naughty things, good things still happen to me".

He is doing well academically - has no struggles with reading or maths.

He doesn't seem to give a damn about pleasing the teachers or other staff members at school and I'm getting increasingly upset by the barrage of hideous reports coming home about my wee boy.

The headteacher has asked to come to the house newt week, for chat. My mum is worried that this could be the start of him being asked to leave or repeat a year.

What can I do?

What can I say to him when he gets home - I know he'll lie and say he did nothing. And even when he does admit he's been badly behaved, he'll jump in say sorry immediately and expect that to be the end of it.

I've run out of sanctions/punishments/discpline methods. Nothing is working.

Argh - no subject heading - sorry.

His response agout good things happending to him makes me wonder whether he is bored in class. Very clever children often are, and are often disruptive as a result.

Do they reward him for good behaviour, or only punish bad behaviour?

I've wondered that sometimes, but it always seems such a cop out and an excuse for bad behaviour

x posts - all children get an afternoon mid week with fun activities.

There also seems to be "choosing time" for the P1s which might be daily - lego/computer time etc. These have been reduced or taken away altogther at times.

He'll be upset (or at least play act being upset - he can fake it) at the time of the telling off but being made to sit it out doesn't bother him - he doesn't feel like he's missing out and will say things like "I didn't want to go on the computer anyway - ha ha".

There are sticker charts and various other reward schemes for good work/kindness/friendliness etc etc. His sticker chart is a bit bare compared to his peers to say the least...

How is he behaved at home, IME, children that play up at school have no real respect for their parents and can often be little tykes when home, they then take the lack of respect into school and won't listen to the teachers either so if there are problems at home I'd say work on them first, then the school is likely to fall into place.

I think that's why I'm so confused.

He does try it on at home, but both dh and I use the same system of three strikes and then 5 mins time out on our dining room doormat. My own parents think we're too strict with him as tellings off often result in tears and upset. But I was brought up very strictly and would certainly have been gutted by my parents being disappointed in me and even more so if I'd ever had a telling off at school. I'm one of those girly swots who never got lines, let alone a detention.

The only time I've seem him genuinely upset by a consequence is losing his story at bedtime.

I've suggested to the school that they increase the severity of the punishments. Ds seems to think he gets off lightly at school and tells me it doesn't matter.

He'll be coming off the school bus in a few minutes.

So tempted to drag him up the lane by his ear Beano-style, but won't obviously.

Ho hum....slugs and snails....

I think I would explore is he bored at school option, does he find it easy to sit still or does he get the work done so quickly/easily that he never has to?

Can't/won't sit still.

When he does sit still he daydreams a lot. He can do the work easily when kept on task by an adult. But it's keeping him focused that's the issue.

ASD has been mentioned over the years by teachers/nursery/EdPsychs but never pursued. My mum's an OT and autism specialist and says he's not autistic/or AS.

So if he's not on the spectrum (apparently) then is he just naughty and disruptive.

A friend said that a friend of hers had exactly this type of behaviour from ds about the same age. When it came down to it, the school admitted that he was bored and that they couldn't do anything about it - ds transferred to different school that was more challenging, problem went away.

Mil tells me that the same thing happened with dh aged 8.

Might be worth considering whether this might be the problem, particularly if you don't have the same problems with behaviour at home (have seen time out that you do - doesn't seem particularly strict, we do time-out for 2.10yo, or alternatively (at bedtime) warning that he will miss story and/or song if he repeats bad behaviour)

Hope that you resolve it soon

I think I would pursue and Ed psych and ask the school what joint measures to reinforce good behaviour and "punish" the bad can be introduced?

ADHD????? or is that ASD???? I don't know much about SN!

I wonder if a developmental therapist could help, they work on retained/wrong developmental level of reflexes. Dd had retained morro amongst other things she had sleep issues & poor gross motor skills but I think they usually see children with "behavioural" issues.

Hi bobmums - just one point I wanted to comment on, you say that when your ds has been naughty he says sorry and seems to think that that's the end of it.

This is very very common for children that age but the message I try to reinforce in my ds is that it's all very well and good saying sorry but thats not enough, you actually have to make amends for what you've done wrong. Then I get him to sit down and think about what he's done wrong AND what he's gonna do to try to put it right. Slowly (painfully slowly) but surely, the message is getting through.

I notice you say he's in year 1, how was he in reception? Has all this just started?

I think P1 is reception - I assume they are in Scotland where they start a bit older.

I've also started making my children say sorry and say I'm sorry I did x because x is nuaughty/hurtful/unkind etc

Blimey cargirl!!!!!!!!!!!

I think taking him to see an Ed phych or developmental therapist is a bit of an overkill for mildly disobedient behaviour in a 5 year old to say the least

Yes - he's in primary one - so started school at just turned 5 - we're 6 months older up here than in the English system.

He's v particular about language so will se if he understands 'putting it right" more than "showing you're sorry".

Sounds a bit like a power struggle...the bit where he says "ha ha well good things still hapen to me" etc so there is something there that suggests he does not like being pushed around all the time and is getting to the bravado stage of saying he doesn't care and it doesn't really matter.

Perhaps an approach of setting him his specific tasks that he has complete responsibility for and making them fairly hard so he has to think about it may work. He is quite young but it wqould be awful if he got turned off by school as just a non stop punishment routine.

Does he have friends and play well? Is it just adult discipline he won't accept?
Can he play games with other boys and not be disruptive?

I wonder this as my friend has 2 boys like this and still like it even though they are into 8-9 years old.
They only seem to respond to a "firm hand" for instance they only do the homework for the one teacher who terrifies them, everything else is let go.

They constantly claim they "don't care" about any punishments.

Partial resolution has been achieved by: one of them helps out with voluntering and gets payments for each session whihc he is saving up to buy something nice which means he now thinks of somehting other than himself and the other was, well, sent to boarding school to stand on his own feet and learn how to operate in a team. He still pretends he doesn't care but also he seems very gutted if he lets his team down in games, so he probably does care, he just won't ever admit it.

Has your son ever said why he feels he needs to be so disruptive? Would he respond to more challenging work? Is he making a virtue now about knowing his behaviour is disapproved of?

Mind you, he is very young, maybe the school environemnt just isn't right for him at his current emotional maturity level?
Has the school experience of this happening, your boy can't be the only one. What are their coping strategies generally?

That's all really helpful Miggsie - thank you

From what I've seen of him at friends' houses or parties he does play well with peers although it did take him a while to get the hang of the whole playing-together rather than playing-alongside thing. He still gets cross if he doesn't get his own way in games, but unless I'm totally blind to it - I can't see him standing out anymore than other boys and girls.

It's definitely all adults across the board rather than just his own class teacher that he refuses to accept discipline from. He's crossed the dinner lady, most classroom assistants, other year group teachers, the bus driver, sunday school teachers, grandparents etc etc.

He's drawing quietly in the kitchen atm - seems quite subdued. He's been sobbing, but I think that's because I've shouted at him rather than any remorse for what he's done today (repeating "bum" in class even when told to stop/throwing reading book on floor/tantruming when told to stay behind).

I asked him why he said rude words and got so cross. he said (and I quote) - "I just can't control my anger - it just happens" They can't be the words of a five year old - he must've been fed them at school surely?

He's trying to get into my good books now by presenting me with artwork

bobsmum sound like hard work. When you've spoken to the school before have the suggested any joint strategies?

I would ask for an ed psych assessment even if it's just to rule everything out.

Perhaps he just likes being centre of attention/the class comedian etc - livens up a boring day?

Centre of attention is definitely ds!!

The EdPsych is coming for another "observation' next month. But she didn't speak to him - just sat at the back of the class for an hour.

Last time I had a formal meeting at the school I was told he is too young for a diagnosis of any kind (thankfully - he's only 5) and that because he is showing improvement in his behaviour that this is confusing the issue.

I think if he wasn't progressing it would be easier to write him off as the naughty boy of the school, but he's learning and changing (very slowly). The staff just seem confused by th e fact that one minute they can have a sensible, coherent and intelligent conversation with him and the next minute he's banging his chair and mouthing off - it's a jekyll and hyde thing

I remember you talking about him at the Christmas night out Bobsmum.

From what I remember, you were concerend that the school were keen to pigeon hole him - and weren't prepared to acknowledge that one of the problems was that he might be bored.

If that is the case, surely repeating a year whould only make matters worse?

I know you are at a village school and another school is really not an option - even if they don't really, as Miggsie asks, have any "coping strategies"

Have you ever read the book "How to talk so children will listen and listen so children will talk"? (or is it kids rather than children?) It's been recommended on here loads of times so I finally bought it. it has some very useful tips on how to subtly amend the way that you communicate with kids.

If it is any consolation, ds, who is a normally a sweet natured boy and who the school think is wonderful, is also going though a really cheeky, bolshy stage, where he doesn't care abut the threats of punishment. He's a wee bit older than your ds (7.5) - but the wee darlings are not alwys such wee darlings!

Thanks PB

I do sometimes wonder if it's lack of experience with slightly different chldren that isn't helping here.

Thanks for the book suggestion - using the right language with ds has always been key - hopefully it'll have some ideas to get through to him!

My mum keeps asking about coping strategies too. That's somethign I'll bring up with the headteacher. All I get is a barrage of "he did this" "he did that" over and over again.

The only positive feedback I get is on his reading and other academic stuff. And he won the scottish poetry competition the other week which had an outside judge - so somebody saw some good in him!!

Repeating a year would be a baaaaad move I agree.

I was thinking earlier that if anything he would benefit from moving up a year - more challenging work and more sensible boys/girls to copy more grown up behaviour from IYSWIM

Cargirl - he's in a composite class of P1/2 and 3 all in the same classroom. There are usually a couple of classroom assistants too.

There are usually no more than 5 or 6 per year group, but the current P2s are about a dozen strong. One mum wondered out loud to me, whether the class teacher was coping with such a sudden increase in class size. It must really change the dynamic to double a year group. There are 6 in ds' year, 2 of whom have jsut turned 6 because they were kept back a year (Feb birthdays).