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[bobsmum]

Ds is 5 and in P1.

I'm getting either phone calls or letters home about his appalling behaviour at school weekly or sometimes more frequently.

He is rude, defiant, disobedient and disruptive in class.

When reprimanded he either answers back, makes faces and rude noises or tantrums with shouting, crying and screaming.

Various options such as losing time on a fun activity or being taken out of class altogether have no effect on him. If anything remotely good happens afterwards or on the same day then he will turn to me, smile and and say "See even if I do naughty things, good things still happen to me".

He is doing well academically - has no struggles with reading or maths.

He doesn't seem to give a damn about pleasing the teachers or other staff members at school and I'm getting increasingly upset by the barrage of hideous reports coming home about my wee boy.

The headteacher has asked to come to the house newt week, for chat. My mum is worried that this could be the start of him being asked to leave or repeat a year.

What can I do?

What can I say to him when he gets home - I know he'll lie and say he did nothing. And even when he does admit he's been badly behaved, he'll jump in say sorry immediately and expect that to be the end of it.

I've run out of sanctions/punishments/discpline methods. Nothing is working.

PB - the school have said on several occasions that they will use ds' homework diary to let me know of anything behaviour-wise that's been going on. But it's not consistent. Ds now jumps off the school bus beaming if there are "no bad messages" in his diary, but that often just means the teacher hasn't had a chance to make a note of anything. Ds then knows he's got away with whatever. Short of me phoning the school every day I'm not sure what to do about that.

I may have to start picking him up to increase my contact at school.

At the moment I take ds to school, but the minibus brings him home (15 min drive away - rural school). The school want him to start getting the bus in the morning too, but then he'd have to have breakfast at school and be on the bus before 8am - a recipe for disaster I think.

MT - I think the dinner lady has a soft spot for him - he's often come home with tales of being given leftovers from the school dinners - burgers/sponge puddings etc. Plus there's a fruit bowl which the children seem to have unlimited access too. I'll mention this too - I'd forgotten about that - I thought he was "safe" with my packed lunches, but he could be sabotaging my good intentions

When my children have misbehaved at school and the teachers talk to me about it, I ask "Has it been dealt with?" 99% of the time the answer is "Yes." In which case the issue is closed. I would never punish my child for something that has already received punishment. Totally out of the question, IMO. A couple of times the school has asked me to discuss some behavioural issue of ds1's with him, but, short of expressing my disapproval, I never punish him again for whatever it was.

Of course there should be total transparency about what goes on in school, you should be kept informed of all the issues, but why on earth should the poor little tyke be punished again? After all, he is having a tough time of it already - what he needs is Mummy's unconditional love and support. He's not getting much love and support at school (apart from the dinner lady ).

Yes, sugar and food aditives can affect behaviour. But if that was the case, and the extras were affecting his behavoiour, then you would see it only in the afternoon, not in the morning. Is this happening? Similarly, does he eat the same foods in his pack lunch and on the weekends - and what is he behaviour like on the weekends.

I remain convinced that he has been mis-labeled, and is suffering the consequences. I sincerely hope that, as well as escalating punishments, the head is going to ensure he is rewarded for good behaviour as well?

PC - you're a star and a very wise one too . You're right - he shouldn't be punished twice. But I do need to somehow let him know that I'm unhpapy about the behaviour.

The naughtiness is often in the morning even before the first playtime, so I guess it can't all be down to lunch.

Lunch is v similar at weekends and he has his moments, but seems ok - certainly never ever unmanageble as he seems to be at school.

This is helping me to get my head straighter.

Totally agree with PrettyCandles. So often parents are told about issues, and of course they immediately think they are being told because they are being expected to DO something. Whereas in fact the issue really needs to be dealt with immediately by the school and they are usually only telling the parent in the interests of communication etc.

I would use that strategy of asking 'has it been dealt with?' that's a brilliant idea; then the pressure is off and you can have a fresh start at home without your ds dragging this baggage along to home.....

Also I know the Ed Psych has observed, but have they ever had a one to one assessment with your DS? Because they do intelligence testing and IQ scores which may be very helpful for you in identifying his strengths; which the school certainly don't seem to be focussing on at the moment.

HG - you're asking all the same questions my mum's been asking!

No - there's been no one-to-one assessment - just one observational session for an hour or so one morning.

I screwed that up for ds though

It was the same day a supply teacher was taking his class and ds was worried she wouldn't know her way round the school or anyone's names etc. I said just be helpful and kind and maybe you can show her what she needs to know.

So of course, ds mistakes the EdPsychh for the supply teacher and when the Edpsych walks in - ds introduces himself and his classmates and tells her who sits where. Big mistake - this was of course too forward, too confident and completely inappropriate interaction between an adult and a 5 yr old. At the time he told me, I thought it was sweet and thoughtful - but he was told off

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that the professionals are uber-keen to make him fit a diagnosis. They're looking for the problems even before they happen...

My mum suggested an IQ test too - how can they test that at 5 though?

Blimey, they really do seem to be judging him very, very negatively. And I would be concerned at a professional judging your ds for having the confidence to approach a grown up like that, as a very negative thing. outrageous!

I think if this was me I would be clearly requesting that the school request an Ed Psych assessment. They need some facts to go on and I'm really dismayed this hasn't been done yet given the amount of concerns they seem to have.

The assessment will give you some answers as to his abilities and will certainly make clear any areas where he is so bright that he could be showing this behaviour due to boredom.

The school should WANT this information so that they know what they're dealing with!

Also what I'd be requesting from the school is some more positivity in the way that they talk about him. Obviously he needs consequences if things go wrong but they really do sound overly negative with him.

Well of course that is "too forward, too confident and completely inappropriate interaction between an adult and a 5 yr old"! Which simply proves that the mind inside the 5yo body is not that of a 5yo, but of a rather older person! And not of a person with problems - argh!

Perhaps the school don't want to be 'lumbered' with a better-abled pupil. It would mean more work for them, preparing and carrying out extension activities.

I think it depends on the child as to the IQ test; but I think it can be done yes.

TBH the IQ is not necessarily that important; what you will get is a breakdown of his skills in many different areas and you'll get a score. On ds' the average range was between 7 and 13, with a score of 10 being average. So if a child is getting a score of say 15 or 17 or 18 etc then you can see how far ahead they are and deal with that accordingly in the classroom. Equally, if his, say, comprehension was at a level 5 or 6 you would then know there was an issue with his understanding or processing of information.

HTH?

on your behalf re the pigeon holing of your ds.

Insteadof implicitly cirticising your ds for being helpful, why couldn't they have celebrated the fact that you have a "mature beyond his years" wee boy. And who haven't they come up with strategies on how to harness that helpfulness?

BTW - I wasn't meaning for you r punish him again if the school let you know that he had been bad - it was just so that he knew that he couldn't pull the wool over his eyes.

And I do think you are going to need to ring the school daily to see if there are any issues. They'll get so fed up of it that they will take the time to fill in the homwerok book!

lol PB - I will pester them - they won't know what's hit them

I don't think anyone saw helpfulness or thoughtfulness - just another thing that fits with Aspergers probably. There was a lot of head nodding and hmmmm-ing at the last meeting when that example was mentioned.

I suppose it does fit with his lack of acknowledgement of any adult's discipline, but this was a positive response to an adult rather than a negative one (for once!)

and remember to sit with your mum and get her to explain why she - who works in the field - deosn't think it is ASD/autism - in words of one syllable so you can repeat them to the school!

Bobsmum - you've suddenly got me worried now!. We were in a park at the weekend and discovered that a path was closed due to a tree being down and work being carried out, so we pointed out to some people the way we'd just gone round conveniently. A little further on, the path had been blocked off with a barrier and sign so we didn't feel we needed to tell anyone else. however, ds (2.10), on his own accord, went up to an elderly couple to tell them that the path was blocked because of a tree. Does this mean that he is likely to be considered 'abnormal' when he starts school in a similar way to your ds - I thought that he was just being helpful (and he quite likes adopting 'grandparents' when we go to the park )

MT - no no no - nowadays helpful and confident means precocious and problematic. Grrrrrr.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't!

Your poor wee boy.

Bobsmum - I've got a problem in waiting then, havn't I!!!

On the punishment for what happens at school thing, the point I was trying to make is that we never punish ds for what happens at school (in fact I try to only talk to him about it on the school grounds). At home he gets rewarded if nothing happened at school, but never punished.

I do know exactly where you are coming from and it seems as if bright and confident boys are not catered for in the education system and pushed into becoming loud and disruptive as there is no other outlet for them.

When are you going to be seeing the headteacher? And is your mum going tob e with you?

Meeting on Tuesday at my house (which is why mum thinks it's pretty serious).

Not entirely sure why we're not meeting at the school. She said something about not distracting ds - though how he would know Im there, I'm not sure.

My mum says she should be able to take time off work. She's saying ideally she'll stay over on the Monday night to get the house immaculate beforehand. She's probably imagining a report to the social services if my dishes aren't done or something!

Ds seems to have had a good day today. He had a piano lesson after school and his teacher was very impressed and heaping praise on him. Ds went home glowing and beaming

it may just be 'cos it is a small school, so it will be difficult to be there without ds being aware. It could also just be that she welcomes the excuse to get out of the school - and thinks you will be more relaxed if you are at home.

All of that notwithstadning, you do still need to be fully prepared. Your mum is your best ally, especially as she not only knows your ds, she aso has first hand experience of ASD and autism.

Concentrate on what their coping strategies are. What has thier experience been in the past when they have a challenging child? What have they done then? (That might get tot he bottom of the fact that they are not used to challenging children)

What specifically makes them think it is ASD (if indeed it is what they think it is)? What difference does it make if they do succeed in pigeonholing him? Will it get them extra support to "deal" with him? What benefit will there be to him?

If she brings up the ed, psych., ask what brief the ed.psych was given. What neutral obesrvation did she carry out? Ask for a full assessment with an open mind.

Your ds hasn't done anything to warrant beign excluded - that would very much be a option of last resort. She might try to put pressure on you saying he would be better at a different school. Ask her why another school might be able to cope where she can't. It would not be fair on your ds to have to travel to a much more distant school away from his localfriends, jsut 'cos the 8teachers* don't have expereince of more challenging children.

Defninitely don't go for the option of him repeating a year (it owuld really surprise me if she was going to suggest that). Given that he is coping well academically and if anything is bored by the level he is working at (from what you have described), this owuld only eacerbate his - and their - problems.

Agree an apporach with your mum in advance. it would be usefull if she does come over the night before, so that you can talk through how you are going to approach this. You also need to agree between yourselves a reason why you have arranged for your mum to be there - even if it is as simple as saying you wanted your mum for support and as another person who knows ds well. Does the headteacher know that your mum works in the area of autism and asd? It might come as a (useful) shock to her to know that someone else involved has greater expertise in the area than she does.

Your boy sounds very similar to my DS2(7). I rejected any suggestions that he might have Apergers at first because his behaviour at home did not cause me major concerns and the diagnostic lists available on-line are very definite and scary, you need to read a very detailed book such as Tony Atwood's book about AS to get a true picture of the huge variation in behaviour and ability of kids with AS. Also your mother may not be getting a full picture of your DS as I assume she is mainly interacting with him at home and obviously has a good relationship with him. My medically trained family did not think there was anything significantly wrong with him and in some ways there isn't as, like a lot of bright kids with mild AS he can pass for normal, it is just that teachers just don't seem to have the right educational tools available to handle him properly. My son never had obbsessive intersts in strange things just lots of interests that are not unusual for boys and likes learning interesting facts, the apple juice comments sound familiar. I'm not saying your son has AS but if you can look beyond the scary sterotypes you may discover that he could have a few AS traits, this means that although he may not have full AS he would benefit from being handled in the same way as a kid with AS; traditional punishments and star charts etc. don't work very well for such children IMHO and the approach of books such as the Explosive child or the How to TAlk...etc. book work better. Resign yourself to "teaching" all the social skills and behaviours he needs, some kids don't pick them up by osmosis. Definitely encourage the teachers to praise him more.

Prettybird and Allytjd - thank you so much for your posts. V v helpful

PB - the headteacher specifically asked for my mum to be there because she knows about her specialism. An OT referral was mentioned way back, but it was acknowledged that if could take more than a year for an appointment to come through. The head I think is jsut taking advantage of the fact my mum can put her professional hat on and probably give some informal advice.

As that's the second time the 'how to talk" book has been mentioned I think I'll toddle over to Amazon

Ally - I think you're right that ds will have a number of AS traits. It's just whether or not he has "enough" to warrant a formal diagnosis. For his class teacher especially I sometimes wonder whether an official "name" for his behaviour might take the heat off ds a little, rather than him being constantly labelled as the bad/naughty/unmanageable boy.

I think you may be right about inexperience as well PB - a bigger school has a bigger pool of different children.

Out here, the majority of children are painfully shy and unconfident - a few still need comforters/blankets in school for example. Ds, although quite a sensitve soul, comes across as brash and chaotic in comparison to the ones who cry at the school gate when dropped off.

I may print out this thread

Let us know how you get on.

"How to talk so kids will listen andisten so kids will talk is the book I was talking about. There is another one called "How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen" which is different to the one I know, so can't comment on it.