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[bobsmum]

Ds is 5 and in P1.

I'm getting either phone calls or letters home about his appalling behaviour at school weekly or sometimes more frequently.

He is rude, defiant, disobedient and disruptive in class.

When reprimanded he either answers back, makes faces and rude noises or tantrums with shouting, crying and screaming.

Various options such as losing time on a fun activity or being taken out of class altogether have no effect on him. If anything remotely good happens afterwards or on the same day then he will turn to me, smile and and say "See even if I do naughty things, good things still happen to me".

He is doing well academically - has no struggles with reading or maths.

He doesn't seem to give a damn about pleasing the teachers or other staff members at school and I'm getting increasingly upset by the barrage of hideous reports coming home about my wee boy.

The headteacher has asked to come to the house newt week, for chat. My mum is worried that this could be the start of him being asked to leave or repeat a year.

What can I do?

What can I say to him when he gets home - I know he'll lie and say he did nothing. And even when he does admit he's been badly behaved, he'll jump in say sorry immediately and expect that to be the end of it.

I've run out of sanctions/punishments/discpline methods. Nothing is working.

Apologies to you Cargirl, I didn't know about the previous posts etc.

Nametaken - to me Ed psych is no big deal as it can rule things out as well as in. developmental therapy is also no big thing - it's very little known of but it's no different than taking a child to a craniel osteopath they are helping getting bodies back in balance by assessing their reflexes - quite an amazing thing now I've seen it first hand! Do simple exercises meant dd could run properly after a few weeks instead of the waddle she used to do - it was amazing. Different reflexes affect different things - I was thinking lack of concentration and being very bouncy!

Bobsmum I think there is probably nothing "wrong" with him and it does sound like he is taking advantage of a stretched teacher etc I just think by getting Ed psych involved the school has to accept responsibility for their part rather than blaming parent/child.

Fab news about your dd

Ds is an expert at exploiting chinks in the armour. I just wish he would make the effort to please someone..anyone..even if it was just to keep the peace!

The Edpsych has been pretty hands off so far. We've just had meeting after meeting with no insight/help/advice/strategies. Just a long list of what ds struggles with. It's all very wearing and sad.

Somewhere on the net is a list of questions etc that help state whether neuro- developmental therapy can help someone - they also do reflex tests at your first appointment which are pretty conclusive - dd at 4 reacted like her feet were that of a crawling baby, she still had her morro (startle) reflex, her rooting reflex and another one to do with her turn her head one way when in crawling position her opposite arm just buckled!

I'll keep looking but when your body is doing one thing according to where it's reflexes are and the brain is doing something else then your in conflict which can cause certain traits and I'm sure it's along the line of anger, poor concentration, bouncing of walls - doesn't affect your academic ability at all.

Found the list

Research* for children over seven years of age has shown that answering YES on seven or more of the questions below indicates that further investigation for underlying neuro-developmental delay is advisable.

1. Is there any history of learning difficulties in your immediate family?

1. Were there any medical problems during the pregnancy?

1. Was the birth process unusual or prolonged in any way?

1. Was your child born early or late for term (more than two weeks early or more that 10 days late)?

1. Was the birth process unusual or prolonged in any way?

1. Was your child?s birth weight below 5 lbs?

1. Did your child have any difficulty feeding in the first weeks of life, or keeping food down?

1. Was your child extremely demanding during the first 6 months of life?

1. Did your child miss out on the "motor stage" of crawling on his or her tummy and creeping on hands and knees)?

10. Was your child late at learning to walk (16 months or later would be considered late?

11. Was your child late at learning to talk (2-3 word phrases at 18 months or later would be considered late)?

12. Did your child have difficulty in, for example, learning to dress himself or herself, do up buttons or tie shoelaces beyond the age 6 ? 7 years?

13. Does your child suffer from allergies?

14. Did your child have an adverse reaction to any of his or her vaccinations?

15. Did your child suck his or her thumb beyond the age of 5 years?

16. Did your child continue to wet the bed, albeit occasionally, above the age of 5 years?

17. Does your child suffer from travel sickness?

18. Did your child find it very difficult to learn to tell the time from a traditional (as opposed to digital) clock?

19. Did your child have an unusual degree of difficulty learning to ride a bicycle?

20. Did your child suffer from frequent ear, nose, throat or chest infections?

21. In the first three years of life, did your child suffer from any illnesses involving extremely high temperature, delirium or convulsion?

22. Does your child have difficulty catching a ball, and stand out as ?awkward? in PE classes?

23. Does your child have difficulty sitting still for even a short period of time?

24. If there is a sudden unexpected noise, does your child over-react?

25. Does your child have reading difficulties?

26. Does your child have writing difficulties?

27. Does your child have copying difficulties?

• published in The British Journal of Occupational Therapy, October 1998

From the website

www.neurodevelopmentaltherapy.ie/gpage1.html

DD4 probably doesn't have a yes to 7 of these it was her cranial osteopath who said she seemed to have retained morro reflex - by how her eyes react to light. It's an inherited condition - I think she gets it from me - lol!!! Obviously the milder they have it the less apparent anything would be but if he does then the treatment would presumably help him "calm" down and concentrate better.

It's really fascinating I was very doubtful at first but dd really did change and as I observed the tests I could see how her reflexes had changed for myself.

Just food for though really!

I've only skimmed the thread, but from what you're saying, Bobsmum, he really does sound to me like a 'better-abled' cchild.

Awareness and precision of language, and going off into a daydream if left to his own devices, yet does the exercises easily if prompted or kept on-line by someone absolutely describes my ds1. He has a far more placid personality than your ds, and his school have been quick to recognise his abilities, so we haven't had disruption issues. Nonetheless, every teacher he has had has said two things about him "He's a pleasure to teach - quick on the uptake, astonishing general knowledge which he is always ready to share" ([preen]), and "He's generally the leader in any mischief" Not disruption or naughtiness, but cheeky mischief (he stole one of his teacher's shoes once!).

The school is obliged, I think, by Ofsted guidelines, to provide extension activities for the better-abled children. If they won't acknowledge that the issue may be his ability, but insist that it's purely a discipline issue, then I think you ought to get an independant assessment. Not sure from whom though, possibly an Educational Psychologist.

It's a crying shame if a child gets labeled as 'bad' when they're actually bored. It can ruin their school-life. My brother and my dh both were nearly pigeon-holed in this way, and my parents and ILs had to fight like stink to get the schools to accept the truth.

Have a browse of this site.

Bobsmum - your ds sounds like my ds2. He is now in Yr3 but when in Yr1 we had an horrendous time. Every day that bloody door opened the teacher would call me across to say what he had done (sometimes it would be just to say can you ask your son to stop fidgetting in class!).

He always got the blame for everything, although I am sure he was not blameless on a good few things, but he always took the rap whatever.

I have a very good friend who works for the Council and she put me on the right path of asking the Head if we could have someone go into school to independently assess him. Ds2 was unaware that this lady was there to see him in action.

I then had meetings with her after her watching Ds2 in different environmnents, ie. class, playing outside. Do you know what - she said that he was being set up by his peers. She watched them kicking him under the table and when he kicked back they told on him and he got told off - he was so used to this he did not even try and tell the teacher he did not start it.

It also turns out the there was new lunchtime staff and they were being over zealous with him and instead of letting the little things go, they kept sending him to the Head and it was just like "oh not you again".

My son is very bright and he does get very bored very easily. When he moved to Yr2 he got a fantastic teacher who could see the potential in him and she believed in him, he came on in leaps and bounds and very soon the "bad boy" image that he got vanished.

Yes, they do try and pigeon hole the children and unfortunately for those few who are square and won't fit into the round holes get a very raw deal. But hang in there and it will come right.

His teacher in Yr3 has made him her job person which keeps him busy and out of trouble.

Stick tight and give him lots of praise.

Good luck.

bellavita, who did you get to independently assess your son? I'd love to have somebody go in and watch DS and tell me what's wrong/right with him!

I had to go through the school. Basically, there will be one teacher who co-ordinates this type of thing. You will be asked to fill out a form which asks you all sorts of info about your lo. This then gets signed off by the co-ordinator who will put the papers into the council.

I had to wait a little while before this independent person came as she was off ill.

I received a letter from school advising the date she would be coming in and would I be available for a meeting later in the day.

Cargirl - at a push I can answer yes to 3 or 4 of those questions.

My mum's an OT and so has briefed me on what therapists will be looking out for on their little tick box sheet.

The headteacher wants to talk about what ds was like growing up from babyhood - I just know she's been doing some reading and probably wants to have a go at some sort of diagnosis herself.

Thankfully my mum will hopefully be able to come and put her professional hat on as well as her gran hat on and fight ds' corner a bit.

PC - what you said about general knowledge rings true - ds is a mine of information. During the last EdPsych visit, the class were have a carton of juice together. Ds explained at great length how apple juice was made and put in cartons. The edPsych thought this was a massive problem as it was highly inappropriate behaviour for a 5 year old. I was just chuffed he knew how apple juice was made. But it was apparently something to be very concerned about rather than proud of. If he'd known the information, he should have kept quiet about it.

I know she was trying to go down the whole Aspergers route and bring up obsessive behaviour/interests, but he just knows lots and gets excited by knowing things. If he wasn't so creative and imaginative in his drawing and storytelling then I might worry, but it's not just facts and figures that he loves. He's also very musical and plays the piano and drums. Rather than this be another positive string to his bow though I was told (by the Edpsych) that this was very common amongst people with Autism and probably just another impairment.

It does sound to me like he's bright and bored, my dd1 was about 9/10 before she mastered accepting the fact she was brighter than a lot of her class and to keep quiet and let them lead/make wrong decisions in group work etc so to expect him to keep quiet at 5 - lol!!!!!

I think the neuro-developmental thing could possibly help him concentrate better & sit still it's not going to stop him being bright, bored and giving them extra work to do

Any alternative schools nearby if they don't pull their socks up!

SIL has altered dd's diet route which has made a difference. She's taking omega 3 to help concentration and also has exluded some additives on the recommendation of the dietician and so far very positive results.

Thought also Bellavita's post was very interesting.

It must be frustrating bobsmum.

When you see the headmistress, you should ask her what the school's/teacher's coping strategies are. Part of their job as teachers is to be able to deal with a range of different behaviours.

You can say to her you are happy to work alongside what the school's techniques are, to make sure that what you are doing and they are doing is complementary!

It doesn't sound like he has done anything that would justd=fiy them excluding him. It's very rare in Scoltand for children to be held back once they are in the system. If hse does suggest holding him back, ask what she epxects that to achieve - escpecially as he is obviously more than coping with the academic work.

Where you live, another school is really not an option

I think it is really important to have your mum there, given her area of specialism. If they are trying to "tag" him with the label of aspergers or autism, then they need to justify that with more than one example. And if they beleieve that there is sufficient evidence, what difference is that going to make to how they deal with him? Does it just mean that they wuld be able to access extra resources to "deal" with him?

If they are goign down the ADHD route and are wanting you to "treat" him with ritalin, what has/would your GP have to say about that?

He sounds quite a lot like my ds who is in reception. Ds is also a mine of information and him wanting to pass it on in someway is wrong. Teacher asked class why it was getting warmer and someone said "because its spring" "yes" said teacher and wanted to moved on. Ds left his hand up because he wanted to explain about global warming and thought perhaps the teacher did not know about this . This was considered dirsputive and abnormal behaviour. Ds then gets frustrated that no one will listen to him and becomes aggresive.

He also has an extreme sense of justice and will become quite aggitated if someone transgresses it, for example the children all get turns in standing at the head of a line. Ds had observed that all of the other children had had a turn so thought it must be his turn. The TA of course had no idea who had had a turn and who had not so had put another child at the front. Ds became very confrontational when he was told he could not go first. Whilst I recognise that his behaviour was not appropriate and he must do what he is told, sometimes I think it would be better if the school could ask him why he acts the way he does.

I don't have much practical advice, just lots of sympathy. The one thing I have found does help with ds is positive reinforcement. He is largely unconcerned with punishments but if he has been good all day he gets to stay up for half an hour and if he is good all week, he can pick something he would like to do at the weekend. This does actually have some results and we also encourage him to ring his grandparents when he has been particularly good and you can see he is almost bursting with pride. We started this as there was a time when we were focusing on the negative so much it had almost become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The other thing to remember is that your wee boy is only 5. He's still learning how to operate in "company".

If they are seriously suggesting that he has a "problem", can you go to your GP and aks for a referral there? Alternatively, could you try to get hold of an independent educational psychologist? Your mum might be able to help with suggestions.

Oh Bobsmum! OK, I'm seeing your ds through his mum's eyes (so hardly an unbiased view ) but I am 100% convinced that you have a bright, understimulated, underappreciated boy. ADHD/Aspergers my a*se! No, I'm not any sort of expert, I merely have a boy like yours, a brother who was a boy like yours and a dh who (according to his parents) was a boy like yours. They all three can get a bit obsessive about certain things, especially knowledge-related, but that doesn't make them SN. I think you should post on the SN board asking for opinions on whether your ds is likely to have ADHD or Aspergers.

i find it really weird that wanting to pass on extra knowledge is seen as disruptive - IME DS's fount of knowledge and willingness to share is seen as a positive things (although opportunities seem to be more limited in year 1 given curriculum). u

The more I think about it, the more I think it is becasue your ds is not being stretched and is getting bored.

The other thing for people who are reading this to realise is that P1 is the equivalent of reception - which only makes their attitude worse

It sounds like the school have backed them selves into a corner when dealing with him, so that any "poor" bevahiour immediately escalates. What do other parents think of your ds' behaviour when he is playing in a social context (ie outwith the school environment)?

A big well done for the poetry competition

My daughter responds very well to saving up rewards for something that she will really enjoy - a trip out somewhere usually.

Best of luck for the meetings. I have been there with my daughter but things improved as she got older. She is 7.5 now and her behaviour is good at school but when she was 3 and 4 she was very hard to manage.

Aw - you're all lovely

Thank you for listening to my ramblings!

I saw the head in passing this morning and sure enough she said the immortal words "I've been doing some reading..." - I just know she's thinking either ADHD or AS.

On a positive note, she did say she was willing to "increase" the consequences if he behaves very badly and that she will sit with him if he needs to miss Golden Time (what a twee concept!)

Ds had a mental arithmetic homework sheet last night which I sat with him for, fully prepared to help him, give clues etc. But almost before I could hand him the pencil - he'd done all the sums. A few months ago he would have been using fingers to count. Last night he just reeled off the answers. He said "I know all those sums already, mum!".

Goosey - you're so right about the self-fulfilling prophecy thing - I think Bellavita hinted at that too. He's been labelled since nursery as being a "problem" and the school were informed in advance that he was in need of extra help.

God PB - ritalin - no way on this earth! My mum mentioned that the school/edpsych might bring that up - I really hope it doesn't come to that

His diet is good I think, but I'm not very clued up on what might trigger certain behaviours.

He does eat a lot of fruit, so maybe there's a sugar thing? I'm trying to cut down on his fruit intake, and he has Omega3 supplements. I'm not sure if they're doing anything, but they can't be doing any harm either.

Might link his thread to the SN board and pick brains there too

PB - the only thing other parents have ever mentioned to me is him crying when he loses a party game. Apparently at the weekend his world ended during musical chairs

If I'd been there I'd have told him to stop being daft and he'd have calmed down pretty quickly, but I know other adults get sucked in to his drama queen outbursts (he's a real performer) and he relishes the attention. Often what would have stopped in minutes then escalates into melodramatic sobbing and deep breathing.

He'll either end up in the West End or a criminal mastermind.

Should also add, ds knows I check every day whether he has been good or not. It is much easier for us as parents to do something to reward good behaviour than to take something away for bad behaviour. You say taking away a bedtime story has an effect. What if you bought a special series of books that you will only read with him if he is good - might that help?

I worry a lot about being able to break out of the badly behaved child mode. I know that ds gets into trouble for things that other children do not simply because he is perceived as a naughty child. By way of example, ds accidentally hit another child with a soft building brick and (justifiably) was in trouble for it. Another child spent the day hitting children who annoyed her and was in less trouble than ds! I know this is because with ds it is just seen as another incident in a pattern of behaviour but I don't know how to stop it. If you come up with any ideas, please share them, I am finding the whole thing a nightmare!

Bobsmum - I only metioned the ritalin so that you could have the defence ready as to why it is not the right approach. I know it is not an avenmue you want to go down.

Out of interest, what was the mental arithmetic he was expected to do? If he is being asked to do mental arithmentic in P1, that is way ahead of what ds was doing then - or even now (in P3) (although that is a whole other stroy, as we don't think ds is being stretched enough in his "numbers")

Your comments about the head and her "reading" makes it all the more important that you try toget an independent diagnosis. From the sound of it, even the ed. psychologist who has been in had been given the diagonosis before she even obeserved - which could/would have tainted the objectivity of her observations.

PB - you're right - I should be arming myself to the teeth with evidence

The maths sheet was just simple stuff like 3
+4, 5+3, 6-2 - nothing hard - maybe a dozen or so questions?, but ds just did it instantly in his head and wrote the answers in the box. I'd wanted to be helpful mummy, but was completely redundant!

Goosey - ds has been noticeably crestfallen when he realises that what happens in primary school doesn't stay in primary school. I will find out. He's gutted He's mentioned to a TA last week that he could lie top me about being good and I'd still let him play on the computer because I'd never know. Devious little.... But also part of me thought that surely lying and trying not to be found out is as much a developmental stage as learning to play with friends, so in a way I was reassured that he's started to be deceptive - does that make any sense??

And yes I do think the EDpsych based most of her last report on second hand knowledge rathr than on ds himself. I'll bring this up with the head too.

I'd be pleased he is doing that in his head. Ds, who loves his numbers, still uses his fingers a lot - and back in P1, probably still used them even when counting under 10. He's now doing stuff like 18-9, 16+2, and (4x10)+2 (shown as blocks of 10 in one square and two blocks in antoher square) and rounding to the nearest 10 (53 rounded to the nearest 10 is ?) - to which he asked the question: what would 55 round to?

I'd agree with you that the fact that he islearnign that school and home are too different places and he could try to deceive regarding his behaviour is a sign of development and awareness - both not symptomatic of autism/ASD (in fact, they are contra-indications). You could draw on that in trying to be construcitve with the head teacher re strategies to address his (normal if on the bad-side) behaviour. You could suggest that the school communicates regualrly with you regarding his behaviour (good and bad) so that he knows that you and the school are talking.

Bobsmum - does sound like boredom to me too.

However, one thing you said about anger caught my attention. When I was little my parents couldn't understand why, when they sent this nice little girl out to parties, they came back with a raving lunatic. Turned out it was chocolate. I can't touch it at all now as the problem has got worse and I literally become someone else that 'I' don't have control over. If it is outbursts mainly at school, is there something he might be eating there that he rarely has at home that might just be exacerbating the situation?