Top 20% of year group

[Paddingtonthebear]

I see it mentioned that top 20% of year group is a good indication for grammar school / 11+. In a state school that doesn’t discuss top sets, position in cohort or suitability for grammar school, what does this actually look like?

Broadly surely you get an idea from what your child chats about school and how well they do in tests and what their report says? In my experience from DD's class the academic kids are usually quite switched on and know they are doing the hardest worksheets. They notice they are reading Harry Potter when others are only on Horrid Henry etc.

Top 20% however depends on intake.
Also the % depends on the setup in your area Bucks and Kent send more kids to Grammar schools than areas with just a few super selectives.

So exceeding expectations/working at greater depth in all subjects, or mix of greater depth and meeting age related expectations?

No idea, my DDs weren't at the top end. Though I think I could quite confidently name who were the top kids in my DD's primary class.

Dd was in the top handful of kids at her primary school. Early reader, exceeding/ greater depth etc.
She's just sat her gcses. A 7, couple of 6s, 5s, 4s and a 3.
Yes she's bright. But she was part of a struggling year group. What is classed as exceeding is actually quite average at another school.
Dd would have really struggled at grammar school.
She's currently excelling at a mechanics apprenticeship.

@Paddingtonthebear Im not sure it’s totally school related. Reading widely, having general knowledge and being a bit of a sponge for info helps. Not all schools get anywhere near 20% through in Bucks! Some get hardly any. They publish numbers for each school. You get far fewer in more challenged areas.

It also depends what year you're looking at. My kids were bright-but they were much "brighter" in KS1 because they were early to do things. The others caught up a lot by Y3.

It depends really on what the 11+ paper comprises. Ours was half maths and half verbal reasoning, so maths was the best marker of who was doing will I’m that area-the English wasn’t so relevant.

This worked out about right for my eldest-about the top third of the maths set in y6 passed.

Although, if I was going to be provocative, I could give you lots of non-academic ways to pick out the ones that'll pass the 11+! 🤣

@TizerorFizz it's almost as if you don't need to be as smart in an affluent area 🤔

Depends where you live. In many parts of the country there are no grammar schools so everyone goes to comp (or pays) in some areas there's a very small number that excaped the chop but 95% of kids (or more) go to comp, these are very hard to get into (mostly london) then there's areas like Kent where ho retained the pre 1970's system and 25% or more go to grammar, they are less competitive especially further from the london suburbs.

Former primary school teacher here. Reading level is one of the obvious indicators of high performing children, because reading more advanced material unlocks higher order thinking. If you want your children to do well, invest time and energy in reading.

Anecdotal but our son recently passed. Only 2 out of 10 of those that took it in his class passed or got anywhere near. So statistically it is around 20% but the reality is that because it’s only 20% of those that decide to sit, it’s sort of self selecting. From my experience it’s more like top 10% of the whole cohort when you look at what they are working on in class, what they are reading etc. The main thing amongst the people we know (and obv knowing our son and feeling it was the right thing for him) is attitude to learning and stretch. Do they love an academic challenge? Do they do (extra) homework and reading and mostly enjoy it? Do they have a very wide vocabulary and use it in their written work? Are they very accurate in Maths and non verbal reasoning? That’s what it looked like in Y5/6 for us.
We also had to work this out ourselves as our primary offered no advice nor ever really mentioned 11+ until much closer to the time.

Really depends on your area and school. It's less than 10% where we are.

@TizerorFizz "You get far fewer in more challenged areas."

What does that tell you?

We are a grammar area where roughly 25% pass. Last year my school had 50%, most of these we thought would pass, a couple of surprises though! The majority of these achieved greater depth for reading and maths.

@CurlewKate It tells you that background of parents matters. It tells you who can afford tutoring. Far more highly educated parents with good jobs n de areas. I object to tutoring and my DD didn’t have it.

Its been the case in Bucks for decades that the affluent areas get more DC into grammars. In the days when tutors were virtually unheard of, affluent areas produced more getting to grammars. Highly educated parents pass on intelligence and often ambition don’t they?

What I would prefer is schools to coach everyone! Optional after school club. They won’t and never have. There are Dc who, if they had had coaching for free, could have got a place. We also have parents who refuse to go near the grammars and some are teachers who tell parents the other schools will suit Dc better! So lack of ambition by schools who completely downplay the 11 plus and worries about not fitting in skew results too.

We don't run an after school club because that would discriminate between those who can or can't attend, so we run a lunchtime club so every child that wants to attend can. However, we are not meant to do so, county policy is that primary schools don't, so it is a " puzzle club" that just happens to cover the type of puzzles covered in the 11+( ours is just VR and NVR) .

In addition, I would say that 4-6 have some other tuition outside school.

@TizerorFizz Yes, it tells you that the 11+ system is wildly unfair. And there is no way to make it fair. Coaching in school would only give privileged kids more coaching!

Show me a reception class and I could make a fair guess at who was going to pass the 11+ based on shoes, coats, content of lunch boxes and first names. Obviously there will be exceptions both ways, but we know what exceptions do....

@CurlewKate Dont be so ridiculous! It’s not names or possessions. I bet your bottom dollar teachers know! Not at the boundaries but DC who read early, express themselves clearly, are numerate early and come from homes with books are pretty predictable. Schools that do home visits get the picture fairly quickly.

@spanieleyes After school really does work for lots of working parents. I personally don’t care when it is as long as Dc get to it. Schools, particularly ones in more deprived areas, have been unbelievably slow to do this. Mostly for the reasons I stated above. However as schools don’t report 11 plus results to governors or directly to parents, it’s all glossed over. Is your school North or south of Aylesbury? Leafy lane or council estate? Deprived or reasonably affluent? Mostly the ones that want it more get organised I suspect!

I had DC home to play with my DC in YR. I could hazzard a pretty good guess then who the bright ones were. 4 got full marks in Bucks 11 plus. Several got places at Oxbridge. It’s not difficult to pick out possible top performers. More difficult with 120-121 level.

Indeed.

We are not Bucks but further north, deprived area, 35% FSM, 17% EAL.
After school may be fine for some, or even most but not all, which is surely the point of providing support.

Well said.