Top 20% of year group

[Paddingtonthebear]

I see it mentioned that top 20% of year group is a good indication for grammar school / 11+. In a state school that doesn’t discuss top sets, position in cohort or suitability for grammar school, what does this actually look like?

The tests used to be sat in the schools on Saturdays, this was then swapped to Fridays in primary as it was felt to be fairer, less intimidating and meant parents didn't have to remember!

That’s funny-ours are the opposite here. The exams used to be held at the primaries mid week, but moved to being held on a Saturday at the grammars.

I teach in a "Friday" school but some pupils apply for the grammar slightly further away that is an" Saturday" one!

I dont think granmar is a good guide

I went to bourne grammar, lincs. Several kids didnt get 5 A-C gcse

The school takes 50% of kids locally. I have relatives there now and theyre not brighr. Another relative got 3 B at A Level, guess an Iq of around 105/110? Not smart.

So ignore non selective grammars. Super selective is true smartness

Well, of course super selective will do better than slightly selective. But even Bourne Grammar has some smart children !

This! Class system is live & kicking

Bourne Grammar looks to be doing OK to me!

Loving the idea of a "slightly selective" grammar school, BTW.

I don't think the 50% of pupils passing is quite right ( personally I think it's closer to 25% but never mind! )I couldn't think of any other way to describe a school with such an intake!

Seems VERY optimistic to me.
92 children in our year 6 group.
Top 20% of our year group would be c.18 children.
Only 2 got into grammar. Tbf a couple of our brightest didn’t apply, but still, nowhere near 20% were grammar school material.
That said, we have only one grammar, and it is one of the best in the country, v v selective.

Our state junior school has a good success rate for the grammar schools but a lot of the grammar school kids come from the private schools locally.

Yes, some kids are early bloomers and some dc suddenly just get it. My ds was average I guess and then year 3 he seemed to really excel (all on his own because we did nothing special at home). He would always select the most challenging work, started getting GDS in everything. You can get an idea how other dc are doing by comments their parents make. For example they might ask if your dc is also struggling with X Y or Z. Or they might say they did not do so well on something so are doing extra work. Or they might say the teacher gave them feedback to focus more on something they are struggling on.

My son is GD for English and Maths, knows he sits on 'top table' for guided reading. Talks about getting extra challenges in Maths and who else in his class does. Is best in the class at maths from comments teacher has said and what his nickname is from classmates. School struggle to challenge him in Maths, but more standard GD in English.

I've always done a bit of extra work with my son since reception, up to an hour on a weekend. Started light 11+ prep with him in year 3 and he's generally just completed the work and got very good marks. You could do this with your child to work out his strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not sure how they mark the exceeding etc as it seems to vary by school. I've also known kids who weren't the brightest get into grammars & the top kids not to get in. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@AltheaVestr1t my dc has a very high zpd score but doesn't seem great at english.

@yoshiblue You are assuming parents are capable of this. Many are not. Especially in disadvantaged groups.

Also 20% means nothing. Some schools barely get that “passing” Sats. 20% in a high achieving area so despised by Curlew would be low. Our area is leafy but there’s a private crammer plus other private options. So the state schools don’t have all the bright Dc.

@TizerorFizz
"20% in a high achieving area so despised by Curlew would be low."

Eh?<deeply puzzled emoticon>

@TizerorFizz I was answering the OP not suggesting all parents are capable of tutoring and assessing their kids.

My son's in Yr 6, just did his 11+ actually as we're in Kent.
Honestly, your child will know who the most academic 6 or so in his / her class are? Ask them if you want to know. They're the ones who are reading widely, answering every question correctly, doing all the challenges in maths etc. They will know.

Exactly! And so do the teachers. Pretty early on.

For a super selective it can be a few from a school or hardly anyone. In Bucks, you take the 11 plus or opt out. We opted out DD2. Her prep wasn’t really geared to it. DD1 took it at state junior because everyone else was. In her year 28/66 passed. They now have 90 in the year group and domt get half that number passing. Mainly because the influence of the school has its limitations. Tutoring has limitations too I think. It’s often the over tutored who don’t thrive at the grammars.

Lots of schools now do NFER test up to 3 times a year and these are standardised against a very large cohort so pretty accurate. Sometimes teachers volunteer these results and sometimes they don't but if you ask, they are required to give you them. They will fluctuate from term to term but should not be by a huge amount. We are in an outer London borough and are just about in the the catchment for some Bucks Grammar schools. DGS (I parent him) at the end of last term (Y3) achieved 111 for reading and 112 for maths. He's a July birthday and when you age standardise these scores (upwards because he;s young in the year) he got 115 and 116 respectively. I feel these scores are probably just about high enough to consider Grammar but the thought of putting him through endless bond papers from now on fills me with horror (think full on daily battles). He did choose to do Spanish as an after school club this year because he had loved in class French lessons last year which is probably a good indicator that he might be quite academic rather than just quite bright (I think there is a difference between the two).

oooh - just read the rest of the thread...I went to Bourne Grammar too, back in the late 70s/early 80s. Ofsted would have had a field day if it existed then. I'm sure there are alot of smart kids there now.

@dogoncouch Which Bucks Grammar has a catchment that extends into a London Borough? It’s not “some” it’s none as far as I can see. Have you checked this out and stats for allocating places?

Slough

And Langley. Maybe not Bucks but they take kids from our area

Just googled - they are Berkshire! Assumed they were Bucks as they have grammars!

I can never work out what a grammar area is, or whether a grammar is selective or superselective. We are in Essex (Southend area) where the grammar schools have a catchment - out of catchment the child would need a higher score on the 11+.