Top 20% of year group

[Paddingtonthebear]

I see it mentioned that top 20% of year group is a good indication for grammar school / 11+. In a state school that doesn’t discuss top sets, position in cohort or suitability for grammar school, what does this actually look like?

DD was in top 5 in her class throughout Primary (you can easily figure out a rough position through reports, extension work given etc). Got greater depth scores in all SATS. To my mind the things that made a difference were: encouraging a love of reading from a very early age. Reading a wide range of styles + authors. Then secondly discussing age appropriate current affairs with her so she has always been aware of what is going on in the world. Her reports from primary consistently mentioned her engagement with, and knowledge of, topical issues etc. This translates as being keen and interested to learn plus develops higher level and critical thinking skills from a young age.
She wasn't the most intelligent child in her class if you are judging raw natural intelligence but the things mentioned above pushed her above others who were arguably better at single subjects eg maths.

There’s 180 kids per year group at primary here. I think in a big school it would be impossible for anyone except teachers to truly know who are the top performing kids across the year. The only subject they have sets for is Maths but yes, agree if progress reports indicate high scores in both attainment and attitude to learning then that should be a decent indicator of suitability.

@Paddingtonthebear DD was a 1 form per year primary of 18 kids so yes a lot easier to work out

Ah yes top 5 of 18 is easy to work out and a bit harder than top 5 of 180.

Ours was 90 but set for maths and even within that it was clear who the 2 or 3 who finished in the first 5minutes were!

Also with only 18 in a year where we are you'd only expect 1 or 2 to get into grammar.

We aren't a grammar area so but DD has gone private for secondary. She had to do an entrance exam and based on the results has been placed top set English and 2nd set maths. So probably reflects where she would place at a grammar.

@Paddingtonthebear what area are you in?

The elevenplusforums can be quite helpful for a nose around for your area for some ideas about the exams where you are.

I live in a super competitive area (so people may have a private school as a back up if they don't get in) but areas like Kent have a huge number going to grammar so it really will vary.

You also need to find out what exams they are sitting.

You child will have a feel for where they are in the class. Do they get onto the challenges/harder work? Do they find it easy? What have their reports been like?

Our primary officially doesn't advise for grammar but if you ask the teacher they will give an indication.

@twistyizzy well done DD! I hope she's enjoying it 😊

@spanieleyes If you are further North than Bucks you are not in a grammar area. One issue with lunch time is that DC would rather play and lunch breaks are so short. So it’s unfortunate your experience doesn’t apply to Bucks or Kent.

Most private schools, except London, are not equivalent to super selective grammars. Plenty of “selective” schools take DC who don’t get into the Bucks grammars! That’s why a few of them exist.

@TizerorFizz "Dont be so ridiculous! It’s not names or possessions. I bet your bottom dollar teachers know! Not at the boundaries but DC who read early, express themselves clearly, are numerate early and come from homes with books are pretty predictable. Schools that do home visits get the picture fairly quickly."

Not sure why I'm being ridiculous. There is a huge correlation between the indicators you identify and privilege. Ditto names and possessions. We're saying the same thing in different words. Middle class privileged children are more likely to pass the 11+ than working class underprivileged ones.

@CurlewKate Maybe it’s because DC read more! Schools cannot make DC brighter than others. Many of us come from unprivileged backgrounds but did well enough even when faced with adversity. We cannot keep making excuses. Either parents understand what DC need or they don’t. It’s not only from the position of your misunderstood privilege that DC can do well. Others have opportunities too but often prefer other things and DC do not like books or reading or just are not as bright all round. Just thinking DC should all have equal intelligence doesn’t make it happen.

By your own reasoning @TizerorFizz, Grammar schools reward/punish children for the choices* of their parents. No one is saying all children have equal intelligence, but if the marker of intelligence is passing 11+ then you will find more affluent families passing more often.

*Often not a choice to eg. Have to work two jobs, or not value reading

My son was considered one of the brightest in his class and was exceeding in all subjects. Still didn’t get into grammar. The grammars round here are highly selective and only take the top few per cent and people apply from all over. It was the right thing for him not getting in though, in the end.

My son's Y1 teacher told me she "wouldn't be surprised if he went to Oxford or Cambridge". He was talking in complete sentences at about 18 months, reading early, and was just very precocious. He loved learning and challenges and was just like a sponge. I call him my unicorn because whilst my other 3 children are bright (all at grammars), he was just different early on! His teacher was right; he got the prize for best A level results at his grammar and has just finished his first year at Cambridge (where he is very much mid table of his cohort in his subject, which has been a bit of a shock to his system I think).

@TizerorFizz Ah, so you're not one of the "grammar schools are good for social mobility" believers. Something else we agree on.

@UniversalTruth Children are not punished but some parents, because of their beliefs and abilities offer more to Dc in terms of academics. Why do you think families have generations going to Oxbridge? Or generations in prison? I’ve been a governor in a poorer area. Getting reading books read by some Dc is a struggle. Even getting them returned to school is an issue. Are these parents doing their best? No. Not really. Plenty are happy with who they are and don’t expect more. It’s also true, if you look at any school, there are Dc who are high achievers and lower achievers. Do you truthfully think they are all the same from birth? That genes have no part to play? Grammars are not the be all and end all either. Other schools can be great. However if DC has below average reading and maths then they won’t be top set anywhere.

@TizerorFizz
Perhaps my geography isn't as good as yours, but I always assumed Lincolnshire was further north than Bucks?

It’s not a full grammar county though is it? I know it has grammars but it’s not the same process. What % go to a grammar?

As I said, in my area it is 25%. By no means highly selective .
The whole county isn't a grammar area, but then it is a very big county. My area is.

@TizerorFizz As I said- grammar schools are, according to their proponents, intended to level the educational playing field and give children from disadvantaged backgrounds a step out of that disadvantage. The 11+ is supposed to be an exam that you can enter and pass with no preparation at all. People peddle this myth all the time.

Could you explain about not the same process? I'm unclear what happens in other counties and, although I went to a grammar in a different county, that was to a direct grant grammar 50 years ago when we sat the 11+, a scholarship exam, an entrance exam and then an interview before getting a place! In my area, you sit the 11+, or not, depending on your choice. If you pass you can go to a grammar, if you don't, you can't.

In Bucks, the grammars have catchment areas. Lincolnshire does not guarantee entry to a grammar if the pass mark is reached. So presumably the cut off mark varies. In Bucks it doesn’t.

Exceptionally Borlase’s at Marlow has not offered to all catchment but mostly parents get catchment grammar or even get a choice. All exams for Bucks DC are taken at the primary schools. In Lincolnshire that’s not always the case. Not quite sure why they don’t just do it on a county wide basis but they don’t.

Here the test is voluntary and is taken on a Saturday, at the grammar schools. Hundreds sit the test. There is no set pass mark, there are 100 odd places and children are ranked in order of success. The grammar schools are oversubscribed with children achieving a qualifying score so won’t be guaranteed a place but priority goes to children in the priority postcodes (catchment area around the school) and then out of area places are offered if they don’t fill from the priority postcodes.

That sounds very similar to here actually. We have 4 grammars in the town-two boys and two girls schools. There are a couple of super-selective in the county but further afield and the scores needed to get in these are much higher.

My kids went to a primary v. close to the grammars and most years, I’d say that the top 10-15% of the year passed. This would be more/less depending on which primary school you looked at though, some are well known as being ‘grammar-crammars’!

Interesting differences.
Even standardised, The pass mark can vary between different grammars, Carre's and Quegs have been up to 230, Spalding is generally 220, although the girls can be harder to achieve that in than the boys, Boston boys has been around 218- although I have seen children get in on appeal with 212!

The tests used to be sat in the schools on Saturdays, this was then swapped to Fridays in primary as it was felt to be fairer, less intimidating and meant parents didn't have to remember! Now, some are Saturdays and some Fridays, depends on the grammar.