Opt-out of religious service

[Dalooah]

DC is at primary school and there's an upcoming church service for Christmas. We are not keen on religious 'things' and was wondering what the best way it would be to opt out of this 'activity'. It's not based at school, it's a walk away at the church local to the school. Is it even a possibility to opt out? What would DC do if this was possible? What's the best way to ask?

Thanks!

I don’t think there’s much to worry about at a church service.
At most your kids might be bored.
I grew up going to church services at my non religious schools, whether for Christmas or remembrance service etc it’s just part of British culture.
I loved the carol service at the cathedral as we got to perform our plays but found the church services boring but I was older then so maybe that’s why I don’t mind it for my own children.
What religion are you? I’m Muslim and I know some probably wouldn’t be happy about it but I figure they must feel threatened that their kids might choose Christianity over their religion but I don’t worry about things like that personally.

If nothing else, they'd be learning about the sort of things that happen in a church. They'd find out what the inside of a church is like, they'd be able to compare it to other places they may have been.
Of course they will be able to ask questions - that's what school's about!
When they hear people talking about celebrating Christmas, it would give them an idea of what that might involve.
It's really nothing scary - it's just helping them to understand that people do things differently to each other. Is that really a problem?

A moral vacuum?

That's low, even for you.

Why should your child not learn about different religions? We are Christian but still expect DD to learn about other religions. Surely as someone of a non main faith you would appreciate others learing about your beliefs so why wpuld you not want your child to learn about others

What does your child want to do

My child attended a state school and they still had a heavy Christian focus with Christmas, Easter and so forth being occasions when they would visit the local church. People would also come in and talk to the children about the bible, etc.
They didn't go to any synagogues, mosques, gurdwara, etc. nor have people coming in to talk about other religious faiths other than one ten minute talk from a parent.

If parents asked for their children to opt out of the overly Christian stuff then they were told that their children couldn't be in the school Christmas play, etc, as that too was "religious ".

It seems that the DfE require schools to hold a daily act of worship. No idea why. Nor why it has to revolve around just one belief system. I would prefer that they taught RE about all major faiths and didn't do the other stuff if it is not going to be inclusive.
Needless to say, many people just sighed and put up with it as they didn't want their children ostracised from their peers by being excluded from plays.

This appalling. You get that the point of RE education is to teach about Philosophies, theologies and social science and how this combines to create communities with and without faith. Religious education is not about indoctrination. It’s about trying to understand the other.

@UWhatNow

“It’s not some satanic brainwashing ritual”

the religious bigotry on display here is quite disturbing.

Satan worship is just as valid as the worship of any god. Im sure that people attending the church service would not appreciate the prayers and rituals being referred to as a form or “brainwashing”. In fact in your own post you dismiss the importance of attending these rituals. Disparaging another religion in the process is pure bigotry.

Is it a Christingle service, OP? If so, ask the school if you don't want them to attend as they may have a related activity in school first so they'll skip that as well.

What they would do instead depends on how much of the school is going - at my DD's school it would be one year at a time, so it would be possible for a child to join another class while their year was out at the service.

I don't think the school will mind you asking them about the possibilities of skipping it, they may be keen for your child to join in though (they will be the ones tasked with ushering them away when everyone else is doing the activity/trip) but there won't be a problem with asking about it.

I deliberately sent my DC to non faith schools for both primary and senior school. It made no difference, they still were taught that Christianity was the one true religion, especially around Christmas and Easter.
Many words were had over the years about religious teachings until I withdrew them from all collective worship. They still did RE as an academic subject but no church services, religious assemblies or prayers.
It absolutely ridiculous in 2022 the hold the church has over our children’s education.
I grew up in an ultra conservative Christian family and I want absolutely nothing to do with any of it and I don’t want my children to be exposed to it either.

Collective worship is broadly Christian in ethos by degree from the government. The school can have, and and some schools do have, other religious ethos for collective worship. They government states that collective worship has to take place, it’s for each school to decide what that looks like. If you are a CofE school when then it’s been made for you.

religious education should be teaching a variety of world views. Collective worship is different an unrelated to re anyway.

Im unsure how much they'd actually learn from a church service- considering they've never been to one- are they going to be able to ask questions?

If it's a standard Christmas carol service, they may well be learning the carols in class. Children can also be selected to do readings of the Christmas story from the Bible. Questions will be fine in class but not in the service itself. Christmas carol services are usually the most enjoyable of the church services. As far as I know you can withdraw your child from church services: I would imagine you contact the school and ask to speak to the head, or write to them with your request.

As to what they will do - difficult to know if the whole school is going to the service, they will be left at the school on the day with a member of staff. And if you also want them not to take part in any prep, you will need to specify this too. This is something you could clarify with the head when you contact them.

Honestly, don't pull them out. It marks children out as 'other' - their friends will want to know why, so you will need to prep your child with suitable answers as 'Mummy doesn't want me to go', will only invite further enquiry. You may feel pressured to let your child attend, because of staffing numbers, not because the school necessarily has a religious agenda to promote

If you are secure in your beliefs and cultures mores, your children will be able to withstand the pressure of a few Christmas Carols and Bible readings.

How wonderful for the fairies.

OP You can withdraw your child from worship. Sample letter on this page.

www.secularism.org.uk/end-compulsory-worship/guide.html

Hi OP.
You asked what they would learn, would they be able to ask questions.

Well they wouldn't be able to ask questions at the time, but would afterwards.
They would learn what the inside of a church looks like, how services are conducted, when to sit and stand, hear some bible readings, hear the nativity story.

If they are Jewish they'd learn how Christians believe Jesus's coming was foretold in the old testament. If Muslim they'd learn a bit more about one of their prohpets. If Hindu they'd learn a bit about the religion of the established church in England.

I know this isn't an RE lesson, but I've learned so much from my DDs studying RE all the way to GCSE. Understanding about other faiths is really important in modern day society.

Also many cultural references in the UK are Chrstian, it helps to understand them.

What harm will it do to attend? They don't need to believe or sing or say Amen to the prayers. But there may come times in life when they want to attend a church, eg someone's wedding.

This is wrong. You can opt out of RE. That right is enshrined in law - School Standards and Framework Act 1998 section 71(1).

You literally just quoted the OP saying that if this was a visit that gave her DC an opportunity to learn more about the religion practiced in a Christian church she'd be OK with it, as she is with visiting temples or mosques, and that her concern is that the trip isn't structured as an educational one where the child will have the opportunity to learn things.

And your response is to ask why she doesn't want her child to learn about different religions?

Tbh, I suspect the CofE would be very happy with that. At a time when they are losing about £30 million per year a huge cash injection as LAs have to buy the premises owned by the Church that are occupied by state schools would be very convenient. Not to mention the 10% they contribute towards any capital costs.

Whether the tax payers would be so happy about having to buy them out is another matter.

In most cases faith based schools were set up before universal state education. When the state took responsibility for universal education it made no sense to replicate existing schools, and would have been prohibitively expensive in any case. So they took over a proportion of the on-going costs of the existing faith schools, and that proportion has increased over time. The state regulations have increased over time. But the state/LA does not own the land or the buildings.

And a lot of children at primary school believe in Santa. Are very knowledgeable about his mode of transport and his job role.

I also know a child who after a visit to a Methodist church told his mum he had enjoyed drinking the wine.

There is a huge difference between visiting a church, mosque, synagogue, any other place of worship and actually being expected to take part.

My lot went to a CoE school, if the carol service was during school time I just let them go with the rest of their class. If it was out of school times we just didn't go.

why not celebrate actual Jesus' birthday in April, rather than nicking midwinter festivals?

Not the point of the thread but I do dislike this reductive trope. The reasons for the timing of Christmas are really interesting- nothing to do with the actual timing of Jesus' birth of course but a really complicated mix of early church theology*, the timing of Sol Invictus and Saturnalia, and the way in which Christianity then spread across Europe over hundreds of years, and as people converted they naturally wanted to celebrate Christian festivals but not to give up their old traditions...it's a really interesting mishmash of history, theology and human nature, which is why Christmas itself is such a mishmash. The way people talk about it on here, you'd imagine that everyone was happily celebrating Yule and suddenly the Christians turned up and said, "Right, stop that!" 😉

(* Early Christians believed that Jesus must have died on the same day he started to live, as it was thought that great people obviously live a whole number of years (), and they calculated the day he died as being 25 March- based on the timing of Passover- and then argued about whether this meant simply that he was born on 25 March or whether, as he was (in their belief) the Son of God and so a special case, he should be treated as having started to live at the date of his conception- 25 March- which would then put the date of his actual birth as 25 December, because of course all pregnancies last exactly 9 months (). This is also why our tax year runs from 6 April. Anyway, more complicated than simply nicking midwinter festivals.)

Nobody is more Atheist/Humanist than me but our DC seem unscathed by taking part in religious visits or assembly at school. It will not necessarily "brainwash" them, DS is a Humanist. I think a visit to a Catholic church was partly what convinced him. Most children and teenagers are well able to think for themselves.

My DS is at a VC CofE primary; we're not Christian (I'm atheist, DH has a different religion, DS can choose his own path - including Christianity if he wants - but currently is very sure he does not believe in any god). Before anyone shouts at me "about choosing a faith school", it's a rural area, it's the village school, the CofE has a bit of a monopoly locally. Plus the CofE tells parents its schools are church schools not faith schools and are for all faiths and none.

OP, even in a community school or academy a daily act of worship of a Christian character is mandated by law (unless the school has obtained special permission to substitute a different religion if say the largest group of pupils are Muslim or Jewish). Your child's school likely has a relationship with the local parish church and the vicar will be visiting the school and leading worship there occasionally, you just haven't been aware as it's part of the school day. The reason you know about this service is that it's off site.

You are allowed to opt your children out of worship but be aware it's isolating within the peer group and school community, which is why most of us grit our teeth and don't do it.

If you have any concerns about your child being asked to participate in Christian worship in a way that compromises their integrity at this service, personally I would go visit the church/reach out to the vicar and have a chat. They are generally very good about accommodating children of other faiths and being respectful of that, but sometimes need reminding, especially about making it clear to the child where they don't have to participate (little children might otherwise feel conflicted as teqchers/vicars are authority figures). Collective worship is officially supposed to tread the fine line between being Christian worship but allowing non-Christians to participate or observe without compromising their own beliefs, though as I said, they sometimes need reminding.

I'd rather our children didn't have to participate in daily worship in someone else's faith but we suck it up so he's not ostracized. DS says he treats it as a group sing song, he likes the storytelling, and he just sits quietly during the prayers and doesn't say them.

I would watch out for Easter rather than Christmas tbh. If the Easter story is not part of your child's landscape it can be pretty traumatic in the second term of Reception, age 4. DS had a very wobbly couple of months over it.

Even our vicar says, in church, if you want to join in the prayer, say amen at the end. As far as I'm aware, he doesn't make a note of those ( staff and pupils) who stay quiet!

@spanieleyes that's how it should be, the vicar here says in rousing tones, "Children! Pray with me, children!" He would say he's inviting them to pray, but little kids in primary school hear an adult in school telling them to do something. They also did actions in year R-2 to the Lord's Prayer, so it's quite identifying, not joining in - which is fine, but the little ones can think that not joining in would be being naughty unless they're told it's OK, seeing as how the rest of the time they're learning to follow instructions and do group activities because that's what year R is about.

You can opt out, but it would be better to elet them go and just explain your view on things. I think it is better to be open with children about it.