Do teachers still write the 'naughty' children's names on the board?

[Reastie]

I remember this happening when I was at school. there would be a list on the board with the names of children when they were disruptive like a 'naughty list'. I thought this had finished years ago. I'm looking at potential primary schools for DS and one of the schools I had thought otherwise looked good use this as a first defence sanction. They don't call it a naughty list, it's called something like 'name on the mountain' where I presume there's some kind of mountain on the wall where they add children's names as they might disrupt the class.

I'm sure I remember in my teacher training that this had been got rid of as the children with their names on there could be doing it for attention and would like the attention of having their name on the wall, even if it was for something negative they have done. I've never seen it done myself my any colleagues. Is this a red flag or am I overthinking?

@PatchworkElmer I think it’s crucial that kids who misbehave and are disruptive are ‘shamed’ in front of the children who’s education they are disrupting. Absolutely every time!!

I think there is something to this. Children have quite a strong notion of justice - and they want to see justice happen. I can see the logic behind writing names in books instead of on a board or a private chat about behaviour - but to the other children that can equate to basically nothing happening. They see someone repeatedly shout out, interrupting, hurting someone, call others names or whatever and there appears to be no consequence. Many will see that as unfair - and some will see it as an invite to try it on with some poor behaviour themselves. They are not completely oblivious, they will still think Bobby is badly behaved based on what he’s doing, whether his name is on display or not, but in this case they think Bobby is badly behaved and no adult cares.
I don’t think it is ultimately about shaming though - very young children are very visual, and if anything like my children at the age of four or five, have the attention span of a goldfish. A note in the book or a chat with the teacher is quickly forgotten or barely taken notice of. A name on display is a good visual reminder that they need to now focus on making good choices.
It might just be me, but having a name in a book seems somehow a lot more ominous than on a rain cloud or on a red light… So is being singled out all the time for special chats with the teacher or TA. There will be children who feel very uncomfortable with that in the same way some may be uncomfortable with their name being on display. Different children will react differently or more favourably or negatively to different behaviour approaches. I’m sure we can go and ‘google it’ as a pp poster suggested. But I doubt one size will ever fit all.

Yes, that's why DD had started self-harming at school by year 3. She wa doing her best to comply, but just didn't understand/have the skills to comply.

So got punished and shamed.

So learnt that she was bad and stupid and worthless.

She is still dealing with the long term effects, now aged 14. Has no belief in her ability to succeed if she tries hard, so why try at all? It wasn't the attitude she started school with, her pre-school report noted her 'positive attitude to learning'.

Luckily she is at an amazing (state comp) school that recognises and rewards effort. She has gradually begun to trust school staff to have her welfare at heart, instead of just wanting to get rid of her because she didn't fit the 'easy to teach' mould.

Have a read about toxic shame. Shame is never helpful or healthy.

It also gave the other children the message it was OK to humiliate and exclude her. Because she 'should' be ashamed, and was bad and worthless. Endorsed by the adults.

All teachers like the easy to teach children. It’s human nature. Children with developing complex SEN do present more of a challenge and if they disrupt the class for years they are possibly in the wrong setting. Around 1000-1200 pupils each year are permanently excluded from primary schools. These Dc have profound unmet needs. It’s 6700 a year at secondary schools so unmet need is lurking in thousands of Dc.

We do have to protect the majority and have a duty to do so. Therefore accepting we need special provision for Dc who cannot function within a mainstream school should be acknowledged by everyone. Parents, schools, government etc. inclusion does work for some but inclusion only works for others after a great deal of input.

Sort of. There's a colour chart but it's a "I need reminding of the riles" and "I really need some help" section that are "bad". And there's no punishment but the TA helps those kids.

Its been said a thousand times already.. but in year 1 my DS spent everyday on the storm cloud. It gave him ptsd on top of his (at the time) undiagnosed adhd and autism. At a child's party 3 little girls came up to me and said 'your Son is a very naughty boy'
I actually went into the toilets and cried.

The lovely school we moved him too has a lot of troubled children but no boards like this. People are kind and understanding. When my son was having a bad day he went and had a chat and some colouring in the heads office. He has bad days because he's ND.

Would you like a chart at work judging your performance by some unknown and arbitory measures?- yeah thought not!

@TizerorFizz sadly nowhere for most of them to go!

Sorry, so when the bad behaviour happens...what do you do? Literally? Ignore it? Wait foe something good to happen so you can "praise" it??? Why is being ashamed of bad behaviour a bad thing? I literally don't understand this nonsense. There are laws prohibiting certain behaviour in adulthood...for which there are consequences...many of which result in SHAME. So when do you start teaching this to a child? Or do they just miraculously get it when they turn 18? Pure nonsense...this is why society is in this disgusting mess.

Totally agree

This is awful and I think we need to distinguish those with additional needs from those simply making repeatedly bad choices. I certainly am not including those with additional needs in my opinion on this topic as I don't think you can. It's far too complex. Where there isn't yet a diagnosis, of course this makes it harder but I think this is where the parents and school need to be in close open and honest communication.

Yes but the school didn't believe it was Autism. In fact it took another 3 years to get a diagnosis. The next school took it that it was additional needs... but the storm cloud school thought it was his bad behaviour and our poor parenting. This is a common issue. I know dozens of parents this happened to at different schools. So really there isn't actually properly bad behaviour only SEN or troubled child. All the other children make mistakes and learn from them. But my other child never went on a 'cloud' or got sent to head or anything in the 7 years of primary. She'd have learnt very quickly. Probably after one day on a cloud. My son could have been given a cloud every day for eternity.

It's lazy outdated and demeaning and no I don't have an alternative as I imagine lots of children are frustrating to teach with difficult parents. But surely you know that when you decide to pick a career in teaching (yes the pay isn't enough) but there's plenty of us doing similar elsewhere.

The school I work in no longer uses a cloud, or anything else with children's names on because it's basically publicly shaming the child. We had quite a lot of training on why it's not healthy for children, and now we reward for "good" behaviour, by allocating points to that child's house, rather than individually and nurture those children who struggle to conform.

Behaviour in the school
I work in is now remarkably good. Nurturing instead of shaming has worked very well. It's more expensive and time consuming that plonking a child's name on a cloud, but in the long run we have a happier and calmer school.

@ReceptionTA
Yes. Of course any behaviour policy should ensure good behaviour is recognised and rewarded. The majority of Dc want to please. It’s hard to reward the very difficult children. However in YR/Y1 I do think you are correct. When dc get older and in Y3, there need to be sanctions. However the focus is still on good behaviour, praise and rewards.

The sanctions we use are "reflection sheets" which the child completes with an adult during break time. They think about what they have done and what might have been a bitter choice. The reflection sheets are filed so we can see which children have the most and need more support.

Children whose behaviour can be challenging can be rewarded rewarded easily if all adults are on board - for example I might see a child do something kind for his friend on the way in to school (rather than kick his bag in the mud as per usual) and award a house point. Already his day has started off better than he expected. It's a smallish school though, and I know all the children pretty well, and know which children I need to reward for minor things, and which ones to to welcome with open arms when they're half an hour late because no adult supported them coming to school that morning. Other schools would give a child "hurry up you're late!" and at times I do have to remind other members of staff not to be like that.

Sanctions of being "shamed" by using a cloud or a ladder don't work in Y5 or 6 anyway because the children turn it around and start to use it as a badge of honour in a "look how hard I am" kind of a way,

@ReceptionTA
you really do need sanctions as Dc progress through a school but they work alongside praise. No school has a behaviour policy with no sanctions!

We use reflection sheets from reception upwards, A child will be given three verbal warnings about their behaviour and then they will complete a reflection sheet with an adult during break. That is the consequence for child. The only children who this wouldn't work for have additional needs, which could be anything from having experienced domestic violence, being bereaved or having an SEN. Or often all three. Those children we nurture.

We were so used to using a traffic light system that I wasn't sure how it would work when we stopped using it, but behaviour has improved, and is remarkably good which our HT is very smug about

The only children who this wouldn't work for have additional needs, which could be anything from having experienced domestic violence, being bereaved or having an SEN. Or often all three. Those children we nurture

Oh, stop it! How many children have SEN, experience violence at home AND a bereavement, all at the same time?

@Veggieburgers more than you think. In fact disadvantage generally does come in clusters. I'm guessing you don't work with children then?

@Veggieburgers Maybe not often but two children I work with at the moment, one I don't work with at the moment and one who left the school last year. It's a one form entry school.

Given the appalling neuro-developmental impact of early trauma, such as living with domestic violence, I can easily believe that domestic violence/SEN are connected.

And even children experiencing domestic violence have extended family who they are close to, and whose death will have an even greater impact on their life because they were a rare beacon of safety.

Plenty.

A parent can abuse substances and the child have SEND as a result of in utero exposure. A parent can have MH issues stemming from SEND that has been inherited by the child. A parent can perpetrate or be the victim of domestic abuse. A parent can die as a result of substance abuse, domestic abuse or MH issues - or something unconnected. The other parent/step parent could, too. And then there's grandparents and other extended family members. Or siblings/step/half siblings. And with those come poverty, poor housing, poor nutrition, lack of diagnosis or effective medical care, lack of support in education, lack of aspiration, being actively dragged back because 'that's not for the likes of you', lack of encouragement or security or boundaries that are appropriate.

Any one of us can accumulate Adverse Childhood Experiences. They're like buses of fucking misery - nothing at all for ages and then they hit one after the other. Have one and that makes a child more vulnerable and more likely to experience further ACEs and not be able to recover from them.

My adopted children lost their main carer twice (moving to foster care, moving to us), and both had SEN. That's before you get onto the reasons why they needed adopting in the first place...

@TeenDivided Looked after and adopted children do have a special status in schools though. They should get pp for a start.

Tizer Yes they get PPP, but some schools aren't good at adjusting behaviour policies to children with ACE. My comment was more responding to the poster who didn't think children would be likely to have more than one ACE. Adopted children tend to have lost main carers (and everyone else around them) twice, and then will almost certainly have suffered some form of neglect, violence, SA or whatever on top.