Do teachers still write the 'naughty' children's names on the board?

[Reastie]

I remember this happening when I was at school. there would be a list on the board with the names of children when they were disruptive like a 'naughty list'. I thought this had finished years ago. I'm looking at potential primary schools for DS and one of the schools I had thought otherwise looked good use this as a first defence sanction. They don't call it a naughty list, it's called something like 'name on the mountain' where I presume there's some kind of mountain on the wall where they add children's names as they might disrupt the class.

I'm sure I remember in my teacher training that this had been got rid of as the children with their names on there could be doing it for attention and would like the attention of having their name on the wall, even if it was for something negative they have done. I've never seen it done myself my any colleagues. Is this a red flag or am I overthinking?

Our school do names on the board and I hate it. Would feel differently if the system incorporated a way to recognise those who were following the rules, rather than just humiliating those who weren’t.

All the other kids know he's a red face kid and use that to form their own opinions of him.

This is bullshit though. The kids know where there is a problem with behaviour. They don't need to see a chart to form an opinion of whether they want to be around a child or not.

If there wasn't a chart they'd still ll know who the disruptive kids were and the ones who were always in trouble.

There is a child in my daughter's class who has been constantly disruptive from an early age and prevents others working at the same table (stealing stationary, pushing etc). It seems the parents of any child (including mine) eventually request their child to be moved tables of sat next to said child. It has become routine. It does take some effort to emphasise to the teacher the difficulty of having this child as a partner.

IThe school is inclusive and can't simply have the disruptive child isolated with no peers for group work so the school is an impossible position. If there was a traffic light system in place the child would simply be red the majority of the time and I don't think this actually does help in this instance to challenge and improve behaviour.

I think a challenge is that some disruptive children to remind to praise but teachers can be reluctant to praise a disruptive child for what would generally be just expected behaviour. If praise is given then other parents complain that their constantly well behaved child isn't praised and there is an obvious unfairness there. Similarly there ican be a resentment from some children who are disruptive, non academic or with SEND that the constant praise of well behaved high flyers acts to reduce the self esteem and motivation of their children as they feel they will be never worthy of praise.

It must be incredibly difficult for teachers.

Still labelling theory though, surely?

I dunno, I just don't like it in my current school. I found it badly implemented by overstretched, under-supported teachers. It's very old fashioned, and just kicks problems down the road rather than dealing with their root cause. I don't think it works for sensitive kids, unconfident kids, traumatised kids, heavily masking special needs kids. I think it is damaging when you look at behaviour as good or bad and don't question why.

I'm not being obstructive about it at school, as part of the bigger picture I find that I can't support the teachers with it so instead of kicking up a fuss we are quietly moving to a school that promotes positive behaviour management rather than negative.

I'm not arguing to debate one way or another, I'm just telling you my reality of dealing with the outcome of the traffic light system. It's not been a gold star/rainbow experience.

Like I said, it's not the traffic light system in of itself, it's the bigger picture. They use this system because it works quickly without considering the effects of it on a lot of children, I know from chatting to others at pick up maybe 15-20% of the kids are struggling with it in one way or another.

There was a high needs, non verbal autistic child that spent much of his time on red last year, who has now moved to special provision - I spent much of my time thinking how fucking dare they do that to him. He's not being naughty, it's like ABA on steroids. My daughter told me "I don't play with him because he's always on red face".

There's another little boy who's adopted, and the person he is living with isn't really meeting his emotional needs- not through apathy but through ignorance. He comes in, displays attachment issues, and is on the red face because he's "naughty". All the other kids know he's a red face kid and use that to form their own opinions of him.

And that’s that. As no one is as accurately informed as a parent who gossips at the school gate and takes everything their child says at face value.

How reductive

Any child that is this disruptive doesn't benefit from being in mainstream education in a class of 30.

Nor do the other children learn anything from being inclusive in this situation.

Inclusion is a bollocks excuse to fail to give an adequate education and support in these type of cases.

Thats the problem.

If the child can't manage their behaviour to that extent within the limitations of an ordinary classroom they shouldn't be in that classroom. They are a ticking time bomb to a harmful situation either for themselves or for other children. And there isnt any educational benefits to anyone.

You are part of the problem!!!

YOU are literally changing schools because of the labelling, you yourself are doing!

You may well get a shock that the school you are going to, aren't what you think they are going to be...

We have an issue locally with kids removing kids from school to send to private school and finding the SEN provision is lacking there too and there are different challenges that they hadn't anticipated from being at these schools.

You have to actually engage and deal with the problem YOURSELF rather than pinning it on the failure of the school.

Its not 'kicking up a fuss' to be going in and saying this system is causing my daughter particular problems. She is fixating on it and I don't know how to deal with her anxiety from it.

You are avoiding problems because they are difficult and labelling the other kids. Your daughter will be picking up on that.

You cannot avoid labels ultimately. You have to learn to deal with them if its other kids. And kid who have persistent behaviour issues need parents to step up if dealing in school isn't working. If that doesn't work, schools need ammunition and documentation to demonstrate persistent problematic behaviour that is affecting others.

I have another child currently causing problems. I've raised issues two weeks because what I'm saying is backed up by other parents and it's persistent and I'm not saying anything unreasonable. The school are well aware of issues, but not necessarily a full picture. The school actually need parents to report the scale of problems because if they don't they don't have the paperwork to start making a case for support / funding / pathways to more appropriate settings! Last week the steps they put in place did seem to make DS happier. I can well see problems rattling on for some time, but if I don't problems are going to loads worse for everyone long term and changing school is not necessarily going to give a solution either for DS and certainly not for the other kids involved. DS is definitely front and centre, and changing school isn't totally off the cards. But changing school without engagement and 'kicking up a fuss' makes no sense either!

@PatchworkElmer FFS, Humiliated, how dramatic!!
If little Johnny doesn’t want to be ‘humiliated’ than he could just y’know behave😌
And even if he does feel shame, then so what. That’s a good thing surely?

@Meatshake Yoir daughter sounds like she’s suffering from deep rooted anxiety. That is not a normal reaction at all!! Changing school is not going to help, because she will simply transfer her anxiety on to something else.
You need to step up and get to the root of the problem as her parent, not expect the school do it!

I'm moving my kid from a badly run school that doesn't suit her to a school that does. That's what a good parent should do.

I'm not labelling anyone.

We've had a year and a half term of BS from the school. I've engaged with the school as far as I can, but they're understaffed and poorly led so there's no point wasting my child's time there. There is no SENCO, there is no deputy head, the ELSA is leaving at xmas- there is no one to engage with.

The teacher literally said "I don't blame you, I'm looking too next year" when I told her we were leaving.

I volunteer at the school. I'm on the PTA. My kid turns up clean, fed, emotionally balanced, with their homework/reading done and ready to learn. I've fulfilled my part of the bargain- the school isn't fulfilling theirs.

I'm not leaving because of the traffic light system in of itself. I am leaving because it is a lazy tool implemented from the top down by an old fashioned, short sighted and unambitious head teacher with no actual evaluation as to whether it actually fucking works or not. Hint: it doesn't.

Like I said, it's not the traffic light system in of itself, it's the bigger picture.

But that’s not what you said @Meatshake . You literally made a big spiel about how your DD is developing selective mutism, become risk averse and whatever else because of a traffic light system used in her class.
I agree, it must be the bigger picture surely. But if that’s actually the case you’re making I think you’ve missed the point of this thread.
You’re daughter isn’t struggling because teachers are implementing a simple to use behaviour system. She’s struggling because she has underlying needs and some deep seated anxiety. And when it’s not the ‘red face’ it will most likely be something else as a PP said. Schools have to have behaviour systems in place - and yes consequences are part of that. I’m not sure how old your daughter is, but as she gets older she needs to learn rewards and consequences are just part of life. There’s no getting away from that.
I think to say rewards and consequences don’t work makes little sense. Plenty of teachers here have attested that they do - it’s not perfect obviously, but in a class of 30+ not much can be! Those adamantly against have very little classroom or no classroom experience it seems.
There’s a road not far from mine with one of those smiley face ‘thank you for driving carefully’ signs. Another nearby has a speed camera. Any guesses as to which sees significantly less speeding? Rewards are nice - and there will be those motivated by a thank you and many also motivated to do the right thing even without a thank you. But some need the consequence of a potential fine. Some need their name on the board and need to miss a break time. It should teach a lesson but shouldn’t cause major trauma - if it does, you have bigger issues to be dealing with.

Ditto. It’s the same as the way parents deal with their kids at home, some will have specific sanctions eg no screens/docked pocket money / ten minutes in your room etc etc etc , varies from family to family. The main thing is that everyone understands the rules and the rules are applied fairly and consistently.

No. There are better ways to manage behaviour than this, best practice has moved on. I’d prefer to recognise and encourage good behaviour than shame bad behaviour.

Above reply is for @Kolarbri who seems to have taken exception to my opinion…

So what would you suggest when a) little Hunter has kicked his desk partner for the third time after being told twice not to do it again? b) Susie has scribbled on her partner's work and c) Kevin has jabbed his pencil into Fiona's arm?
Not forgetting, of course, that the teacher is in the middle of a lesson which most children are listening to.
All this namby-pamby 'my child is being picked on / feels humiliated / needs understanding / has special needs so can't help it' shows why some children are being failed at school. In many of these cases, the parents either don't care, or actively support their child against 'the 'horrible teacher. ' The attention is given over to the disruptive children and the well behaved ones are left to learn as best they can.

So what would you suggest when a) little Hunter has kicked his desk partner for the third time after being told twice not to do it again? b) Susie has scribbled on her partner's work and c) Kevin has jabbed his pencil into Fiona's arm?
Not forgetting, of course, that the teacher is in the middle of a lesson which most children are listening to.

I don’t recommend this - but my nephew was a bit like this in his first school. My SIL now concedes this wasn’t the best thing for him but he was literally earning stickers for keeping his hands to himself for more than five minutes and when he really couldn’t contain the urge to kick his friend under the desk, or didn’t want to do the work he was set he got to take a break and play Lego in the corner.
His new school sets actual consequences for poor behaviour. He’s doing a lot better there.

@RedToothBrush

As I said teachers must be in an awful position......

I guess places in non formal/SEND schools are severely limited (and expensive) plus would the behaviour of this particular child warrant it?

It seems to be a circular problem and as schools are obliged not to give out information about pupils they cannot go into detail about any punitive (or non punitive) strategy for a particular child.

Are some parents a problem in that they will not work with schools. I think it must be frustrating if parents actively do not engage with behaviour managment. If there is a good working relationship between parent and school this must assist in aiding behaviour and being on the same page regarding any coexhibiting SEND?

You can still have a warning system. It doesn’t need to be public. I know all the ‘naughty’ kids in my son’s class are because he tells me who has their name on the board each day. Several of these children have additional needs.

it is MADNESS that so many people want to cling to this system. If it worked so well, why do the same children keep having their names on the board? Surely effective behaviour management should… manage the behaviour?

it is MADNESS that so many people want to cling to this system. If it worked so well, why do the same children keep having their names on the board? Surely effective behaviour management should… manage the behaviour?
Yes, well - how?? 'Effective behaviour management' is an abstract term that means precisely nothing.
There is currently no system in place, in any school, that will ensure good behaviour at all times from all pupils.
The days when children were afraid to misbehave because of harsh punishment are long gone, and even that didn't work to eradicate poor behaviour, as the same children (and I'm speaking from experience) got the ruler or the cane nearly every day. Today they would be SEN but the term didn't exist until fairly recently.
So teachers have to use some form of discipline. Apart from a cloud system, what else is there? I'm sure you think it's 'madness' but are you able to offer any effective alternative?

@Veggieburgers seriously, Google it. There are loads of alternatives. And as far as I’m aware, very little (if any evidence) that ‘names on the board’ does anything to improve behaviour. This is why it’s the same children every sodding day.

My main issue is it being public. Have a private check list in a book. There is no need to shame children in front of their peers.

@PatchworkElmer I think it’s crucial that kids who misbehave and are disruptive are ‘shamed’ in front of the children who’s education they are disrupting. Absolutely every time!!
Unfortunately, the behaviour management system is schools is a joke, and little Johnny is more likely to be taken out of the class for a treat than suffer any consequence!

Instead of vaguely saying 'Google it,' can you actually come up with a single, effective classroom behaviour management policy?
You probably can't.

adhduk.co.uk/about-adhd/

I think If you look at the symptoms of this disorder it will be quite obvious a lot of those symptoms will result in some form of consequence in a class room with a standard behaviour policy.

You therefore have a conflict of two policies (1) universal behaviour policy and (2) accomodating SEND. How are teachers meant to decide which policy to prioritise?

I think theoretically a transparent uniform behaviour policy has to make sense and I would imagine all schools have them. The issue arises to how much discretion are individual teachers allowed to apply the behaviour policy taking into account individual known circumstances? I personally don't think there is any easy answer to this but within a diverse school environment school staff must be constantly making these decisions.

@Veggieburgers I’m not vaguely saying anything. If you are genuinely open to considering an alternative, literally Google ‘classroom punishment alternative to writing names on board’. There are countless articles, blogs, etc etc. I have already put an alternative suggestion up thread- keep the same process, but the names private. There is no need to shame children in front of their peers.

@Kolarbri your response makes me quite sad! I don’t think such a vengeful approach helps in any way personally, but I can see we’re not going to agree on this.