Do teachers still write the 'naughty' children's names on the board?

[Reastie]

I remember this happening when I was at school. there would be a list on the board with the names of children when they were disruptive like a 'naughty list'. I thought this had finished years ago. I'm looking at potential primary schools for DS and one of the schools I had thought otherwise looked good use this as a first defence sanction. They don't call it a naughty list, it's called something like 'name on the mountain' where I presume there's some kind of mountain on the wall where they add children's names as they might disrupt the class.

I'm sure I remember in my teacher training that this had been got rid of as the children with their names on there could be doing it for attention and would like the attention of having their name on the wall, even if it was for something negative they have done. I've never seen it done myself my any colleagues. Is this a red flag or am I overthinking?

That's why I don't like it, because the other children can clearly see where there are in relation to each other. Then poor Sarah is getting called naughty by her peers, and even if they didn't witness the hitting or weren't involved because they were playing elsewhere, they ALL know Sarah did something 'naughty' that day because it's clear to see.

Or maybe ‘poor’ Sarah could, you know, choose not to hit people?
People are acting as though teachers are just picking children at random here. If children don’t want to be singled out as naughty, most know what to do about that. In rare cases where children genuinely cannot understand actions and consequences, or have no age appropriate sense of empathy then a more personalised approach can be made. But for practical reasons I can definitely see why for a class of 30 that can’t be done for everyone.
If you don’t want your child ‘named and shamed’ (although I really don’t think that this is the idea behind writing names up on a board or using a chart) teach them not to behave in a selfish and entitled way. They have no right to hit others. They have no right to disrupt the learning of other children. Some parents are just bonkers, seeing their children as victims when their child is hurting others and negatively affecting the education of others - to be fair it explains a lot about their children’s behaviour actually…
‘If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime’ and all that. It’s a lesson worth learning early on in life in my opinion.
Some children might say ‘I don’t care if my name’s on the board’ - and I say fair play to them then. But those that feel wronged and play victim about it when the reason your name is there is because you’ve behaved unkindly towards others. Give me a break. I’d be ashamed and embarrassed if my children felt that entitled. I don’t know why grown adults would support their children in that stance.

A friend teaches at some crank school where they don’t believe in punishment as such but what they do is shame children in front of others in assembly. So apparently the child has to go out and is ‘shamed’ in front of all the others. Strikes me as a very unproductive way of dealing with children as it plays on their insecurities. Far better a punishment like having to write out extra maths or being kept in at break or something or doing some lines which are unpleasant. But not this psychological crap. I believe in punishment and I believe in praise but not shaming.

I think they have these shitty traffic light / weather things on the wall. They are awful and so damaging to children- especially the ones with SEND, most of whom won't have a diagnosis yet.

Yes, my DS’ year one teacher. Used the sun and the storm cloud, naughty children’ names were put up on the storm cloud for everyone to see. And you couldn’t redeem yourself all day so if you were naughty at 9:05am, you were on the naughty cloud all day! I made my views known. It was only used for a term and they then used a reward points system instead.

As a teacher! Tell me it's cruel and lazy after looking after a class of 30 five year olds. There has to be some guidance for them with regards to how they behave. It's not like the olden days, they don't get caned or shouted at! It's a traffic light system! Children need to be taught how to behave! It's not innate!!

@Rayn22 fully agree and I'm not a teacher. I don't object to this system being used I imagine it's not a weekly thing anyway. I think there's no issue if your DC is behaving most of the time.

So what would you suggest?

Also. Many children are visual learners! Need to relate their learning to something they understand. Having a rainbow is visual and something they can relate to and have prior experience of.

Even SEN kids understand that bashing another with a stick isn't ok. And if they don't they shouldn't be in mainstream school.

Its all very well to make excuses but the other kids are then seeing another kid doing x, y and z without consequences. That makes them more likely to do x, y or z.

The special treatment thing only works to a point. Part of this is teaching clear boundaries to the SEN kid. Just saying 'oh don't do that' won't get through to many SEN kids!

If you remove all tools for behaviour management you make issues worse.

The kids KNOW what's going on in their class. Those who are oblivious will also be the ones oblivious to the bloody charts too!

@OldWivesTale

Look at the responses when I mentioned ADHD as resulting in behaviour not conducive to the classroom.

If we accept ADHD as a condition then we need to give teachers the tools to address and there is plenty of good information available. I think a problem is when impulsive behaviour is taken as being naughty and a child is criticised for this (through a storm cloud for instance)

Rewarding children for good behaviour seems sensible as well as censure for bad If schools were adequately resourced it may be possible to differentiate penalty/rewards systems based on the pupil and not have to employ blanket policies.

I am not advocating lawless classrooms or actions without consequence but not having disciplinary systems that act against children with disability unecessarily.

When my children in primary they had a rainbow type one all children start of in the middle and slide between colours. The issue came that mostly the kids who were always naughty slide down and up and rewarded - the quiet ones never quite getting any movement. This didn’t really bother my younger child she had a fairly good year group - two naughty children the whole class knew. There was also SEN children (who weren’t the naughty ones) and because it was a quite stable year group - actually lovely - with really good 121 TA support for the children.

My older one I really felt for the teachers - it was a troublesome year group with multiple children that just seemed to cause issues - the rainbow never stood a chance! I don’t know why, it was a heavy boy year (42 to 18 girls) so was really hard to do the right mix without affecting quieter children of either sex.

The headteacher retired when they left in year 6. Something needed to be done but it really was a behavioural issue - a couple of really strong personalities would literally lead the others on! Very separate and different to any issues arising from a SEN child. The rainbow was literally ignored by some children or they saw it as a goal to hit the grey!

When they arrived at secondary school I was worried but the big year group balanced it out. Also a few children either left as parents didn’t like the strict secondary school! They 20 now and majority have eventually turned out alright - but those primary years where tough especially for my autistic daughter.

Why do we not address behaviour , why shouldn't the good kids be rewarded sometimes
Children can have naught behaviour why can we not say that
Most of us now survived being told stop doing that its naughty

It will be a school/ academy decision not down to individual teacher I would imagine.

@mids2019 but many many children with adhd can also behave and learn what is appropriate , can often tell when a child is just being naughty and even kids with sen etc sometimes are just being naughty , its how kids learn what is acceptable or not , you can often tell the difference between SEN causing behaviour or just being a kid and pushing boundaries

As a whole school, we got rid of behaviour charts roughly 4 year's ago. We would never use the term 'naughty'. I do, however, place a child's initials on the board if they have been reminded twice, then given a warning, the next time I need to speak to a child about behaviour, they will lose a minute off of their break.

@mids2019 but many many children with adhd can also behave and learn what is appropriate , can often tell when a child is just being naughty and even kids with sen etc sometimes are just being naughty , its how kids learn what is acceptable or not , you can often tell the difference between SEN causing behaviour or just being a kid and pushing boundaries

I agree. And actually it’s also often children with SEN that find the difficult behaviour of others most challenging and distressing to deal with. People seem quick to say - ‘but my child has SEN’, but don’t seem to consider that there are others in the class that do to, and they find being hit or pushed or having their learning interrupted more distressing than most. There are other children with ADHD, who find the disruptive behaviour of others doubly distracting. There are also children with SEN that maybe don’t struggle so much with behaviour, but that do struggle hugely academically and we all hear how hard it can be for TAs and teachers to provide adequate support at the best of times, never mind if they were spending time taking ‘poor Sarah’ to one side for a one to one chat every time she decides to hit someone again rather simply writing her name on the board, while they should be able to work with actual poor Bobby who still can’t count to 10.

What do you suggest?

A child with SEN needs specific strategies but can also respond well to the boundaries instilled. A general ‘don’t do it because they might have SEN’ leaves teachers with nowhere to go. Handling 30 children and all their needs is hard enough but a child misbehaving is affecting the other 29.

Ive taught many children with additional needs and the most effective parents of those children wanted boundaries in place appropriate for their child so they saw themselves as part of the class.

Just because a child doesn’t have SEN doesn’t mean they haven’t got needs. Maybe they are going home crying that they are scared to come in as they think they’ll be hit again or don’t like it when the same child shouts at the teacher. That quiet child who gets on with it is just as important as the ones with the behaviour issues.

I admire any parent who backs us up or who asks for support but too many are quick to place blame on the school because they simply won’t acknowledge or don’t care what a nightmare their child’s behaviour is.

This is one different approach:
www.cpsconnection.com/

Working out what skills the child is lacking that would enable them to comply, and helping them acquire those skills.

Who do you think might be available to do this, do you think?

Clearly, in an ideal world it might be a learning mentor or a TA. But there aren’t any, not any more. The class teacher would obviously like to, but usually has another 30 odd children and a rammed curriculum to contend with.

I suppose it depends whether you want to face the continual drain on your time from 'badly behaved' pupils, or invest it to find a long term solution?

There are lots of resources under 'Lost at School' including low resourced schools implementing it (and secure units for children with dangerously 'bad' behaviour).

The thing is, I know there are numerous state schools that do manage to take this approach. My DD's school does. A good friend is an experienced secondary school teacher and Head of House in a school with a high proportion of pupils from disadvantaged background and takes a very similar approach.

I suppose there are virtuous and vicious circles.

My friend's school, for example, does home visits by form tutors to vulnerable pupils in year 6 so that by the time they join the school they have developed a relationship with a trusted adult.

They have a ND pupil who arrives at school an hour before school starts because he needs a gentle transition. He is in his form room with a member of staff as others gradually arrive. The member of staff is happy to come in early and do paperwork/marking, then leaves on time. This is a 'bog-standard' comp with the culture of working together to meet their pupil's needs - no-one is obliged to start early, but among the school staff a number prefer to start early and finish on time, so they put that together with their students' needs.

There are others which seem to be staffed by 'it isn't my job' staff.

Rubbish.

There are no spare staff at my school to do it. Making teachers feel bad because they can't split themselves into any more parts is not the answer.

Yet if a teacher says they have given extra maths as a punishment, posters will be screaming that treating maths as a punishment is all wrong and will put the child off maths for life.
Missing playtime - child abuse, naturally, to deprive children of fresh air.
Writing lines - most young children are not capable of this.
Making a child stand out in assembly works well - children don't like it so the message usually sinks in.

And yet there are at least 2 'bog-standard comp' schools that do it - DD's and my friend's - with an average or higher than average number of pupils from a deprived background. That also send pupils to RG unis/Oxbridge as well.

Maybe they are the only two in the UK, and by chance they are the two I have come across most.

Of course, teachers self-select to a certain extent. There are those who want to work in that environment, and those that don't believe in in. So the schools with an SLT that expects meeting pupils needs from day 1 creates a virtuous circle will get staff that are willing and able to do it.

Those that prefer punishments and exclusions will get staff that prefer/believe in that approach.

A friend's DD took GCSEs this summer. After taking their mock GCSEs the pupils were called up individually at an all school assembly, and were divided into those who had done well (gold), OK (silver), and badly (bronze).

I doubt this would be motivating for those struggling and landed in bronze