Do teachers still write the 'naughty' children's names on the board?

[Reastie]

I remember this happening when I was at school. there would be a list on the board with the names of children when they were disruptive like a 'naughty list'. I thought this had finished years ago. I'm looking at potential primary schools for DS and one of the schools I had thought otherwise looked good use this as a first defence sanction. They don't call it a naughty list, it's called something like 'name on the mountain' where I presume there's some kind of mountain on the wall where they add children's names as they might disrupt the class.

I'm sure I remember in my teacher training that this had been got rid of as the children with their names on there could be doing it for attention and would like the attention of having their name on the wall, even if it was for something negative they have done. I've never seen it done myself my any colleagues. Is this a red flag or am I overthinking?

At a cost of $450 for 5 weeks. I can think of better uses for money.

I'm talking about young children, not those of GCSE age.

There's not just two ways you know. Just because I don't agree with that method doesn't mean I don't believe in meeting children's needs. I take it very seriously indeed.

I think different schools have different philosophies but I think it has to be said with investment there would be a better chance of challenging poor behaviour. There was mockery earlier about a pupil given hot chocolate after an altercation with another child but knowing a TA in an inner city comp she is actively involved in pastoral care and that means in depth counselling of students involved in fights etc. to determine if there are external circumstances that could lead to triggering of certain behaviours. Not my sort of job but they enjoy the challenge.

Teaching at low peforming schools is challenging well done teachers.

A few years ago or so I volunteered as a youth mentor with a Youth Offending Team, in a project aimed at early intervention.

The 13/14 year old boy I was matched with had had a fixed term exclusion twice for fighting, along with low level disruption. He had concerned parents who were worried about his behaviour. Was in a 'sink' school where the fighting had reduced, according to the boy, since CCTV had been fitted throughout the school, but everyone knew where the blind spots were so chose those places if they wanted to fight.

One of his primary school friends had been convicted of murder a year or so previously after drawing a knife during an argument, and stabbing and killing the other boy (also a friend from primary school for the boy I was supporting).

By the time I started meeting with him he was already doing better in school. From what he told me over the course of 12 months the main reason was his Head of Year. She always found time for him, and seemed to like him. She listened to his reasons for getting upset and therefore aggressive, while making it clear this was not an acceptable way of dealing with upset/frustration. In turn, he didn't want to let her down, and he gradually got into fewer arguments and therefore fewer fights. And therefore took up less and less of her time.

There are plenty of free resources about this approach, including Facebook groups of schools using it, sharing experiences and learning.

Including low-resourced schools (especially low-resourced schools, as their pupils need it most).

But it does require an investment of time and mental energy. A 'rainbow' or 'traffic light' system is easier and quicker, and works for the 'good' children who, on the whole, will follow the rules anyway as it comes easily to them.

Yes, neuro-science has discredited the reward/punishment approach to changing behaviour, but no doubt there will be plenty of people up in arms about 'rewarding' 'bad' behaviour.

Whereas those who understand the way brains develop will understand that hot chocolate and time to connect can have a positive impact on behaviour and a punishment would increase the behaviour.

The key to changing behaviour is a relationship of trust, until that is in place the child is constantly in survival mode and stuck in repetitive reactions to the environmental stimulus.

'The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog' is a very readable introduction to the way reactions are laid down in childrens brains, and how they can be altered. The author is a qualified neuro-scientist as well a psychiatrist, and the general principles apply across child development.

A secondary school, however poorly resourced, will likely have pastoral staff. However, you are on a primary board complaining about primary behaviour policies. I am one class teacher with 33 chi ldren, no TA, two autistic children, three Ukranian children, one child who has been home educated and at 9 is in no way ready for school. The learning mentor left two years ago and was not replaced and we have just lost 7 out of 9 support staff in a manager staff review. There are no staff members available to do what you describe. None. This is a realistic picture of primary schools today.

Sorry, it's my fault for not realising that secondary (state comps) are not vastly over-resourced compared to primaries.

Primary school teachers try their best to engage children and understand why children behave they do.

These little chats are conducted in a corner of the playground when I'm also watching 100 other children, or in the cloakroom while keeping an eye on the rest of the class, dealing with toilet requests, requests for help and general class stuff, or on the rare occasion that a TA is free to pop in for two mins.

In a class of 30 I manage about 2 or 3 chats a day between the whole class. I would love to spend lots of time with individual children but it simply is not possible.

If this is advised by the government and wanted by parents then investment needs to happen so staff can support it.

Otherwise, it's just something else I feel I'm failing at each day.

Exactly!!!
Not sure what other's suggest? Perhaps if people spent more time disciplining their children at home, teachers would be able to focus on teaching.

Reading this thread literally summarises why our schools (and society) is in the mess it is in. Suddenly children are "not naughty" the "behaviour is". Seriously?!?!? So is the child suddenly detached from their behaviour? I appreciate children are still learning right from wrong but trust me....by school age, they know!!! How about parents make it their duty to ensure their child is well behaved at home...it's pretty obvious that respect for parents and good discipline and manners at home automatically translates to the same at school. None of the children on the "cloud" at school are angelic at home...we all know this. Poor teachers have to deal with the nonsense parents couldn't be bothered to sort at home and then have the audacity to complain when they try to create solutions so that they can do their job and TEACH. Meanwhile for every minute they have to stop to tell that kid to behave...the rest of the class has lost a minute of their education. Infuriates me tbh.

Working out what skills the child is lacking that would enable them to comply, and helping them acquire those skills.

Some of these skills (obviously not all) certainly need to come under making sure children are school ready - same as making sure they can get dressed, use a knife and fork, etc.

There are undoubtedly children who cannot adequately control their behaviour. That’s why there are special schools for them. I have a state boarding one in my town. It’s for secondary age Dc but these Dc have had a huge input from all sorts of professionals before they get into this school. This might include psychiatrists, behaviour specialists, SEND specialists, Ed Psychs and others. These Dc are not just “naughty” , they are disturbed. They are also not very common. When a school receives a child like this, it’s devastating. The systems that need to be in place for them to access help takes forever. They are very often excluded.

The child sitting on a rain cloud for a day isn’t disturbed. They just need more time. They would benefit from a TA. All the schools near me still have them. However a seriously disturbed child takes up a huge amount of time and effort and will probably be excluded. If they get a SEN plan, they get dedicated TA time or a place in a special school. It’s undoubtedly hard for teachers when dc like this appear but most schools have Dc who are largely ok with standard discipline strategies. They do improve and don’t fill up the special schools!

And yet so many 'bog standard' state schools do manage to support 'those' children who aren't 'bad' but need help to change their behaviour.

Others take the attitude that they shouldn't have to, that if children don't respond to rewards/punishments (despite the 20-30 years neuro-science showing this doesn't work except with children who are basically able to meet the behavioural requirements) then those children are the problem and should be abandoned

The key to changing behaviour is a relationship of trust

If the children in my care don’t trust me to keep them safe then everything else is pointless. They also need to trust that I care about their learning. I simply cannot get them to trust me in a disrupted classroom. So (for me) sanctions are necessary for the children to realise that there are boundaries in my classroom, and every single rule is there for them. To keep them safe, to ensure they learn well. Failing to implement clear and consistent boundaries doesn’t teach children to trust you, it just demonstrates that you don’t care.

Of course, if schools were properly resourced there would be time for unlimited discussions about behaviour as well. But, in most state schools, there isn’t the time. And I really don’t think it’s okay to bully teachers in to doing yet more unpaid overtime. No doubt some schools are expert at the emotional manipulation, but that doesn’t mean it is okay.

And yet so many 'bog standard' state schools do manage to support 'those' children who aren't 'bad' but need help to change their behaviour.

Used to. Many schools had learning mentors and support staff galore. All gone.

Others take the attitude that they shouldn't have to, that if children don't respond to rewards/punishments (despite the 20-30 years neuro-science showing this doesn't work except with children who are basically able to meet the behavioural requirements) then those children are the problem and should be abandoned

indeed. That's the Tory government you are describing right there. Many of whom don't even use the state system.

That last paragraph resonnates so much. Definitely seeing a lot of this with my son's year.

Current school does traffic light/peg system.

I've got a perfectionist child. I watch it instill fear and anxiety when before she was keen to achieve and keen to please/learn just as a part of her personality. I see it reduce her risk taking and ability to try new things. I watch her become selectively mute because green rewards quiet. She is becoming more and more unambitious for fear of fucking up. I hear her talk about "Charlie Red Face" and other kids- they know who's always on red.

It's not THE reason we are leaving the school but it's totally indicative of the sausage-conveyer culture of the school. We're moving somewhere that asks "why" to bad behaviour, rather than just punish it.

Current school does traffic light/peg system.

I've got a perfectionist child. I watch it instill fear and anxiety when before she was keen to achieve and keen to please/learn just as a part of her personality. I see it reduce her risk taking and ability to try new things. I watch her become selectively mute because green rewards quiet. She is becoming more and more unambitious for fear of fucking up. I hear her talk about "Charlie Red Face" and other kids- they know who's always on red.

It's not THE reason we are leaving the school but it's totally indicative of the sausage-conveyer culture of the school. We're moving somewhere that asks "why" to bad behaviour, rather than just punish it.

I find this all hugely ironic though @Meatshake . Your daughter’s reaction to a simple traffic light behaviour system is not normal. Maybe you need to be thinking more deeply about why she is responding in this extreme way? And whether there is actually a lot more to it all - you attributing selective mutism to a school rewards system is pretty simplistic. It really doesn’t come across that you consider the true ‘why’ in all this at all.

One of the things I have done when I have had a tricky group (Supply so lots of being the third teacher that year) is to phone the parents of the ones trying to work to let the parent know I might not have said anything in the class, but I did notice their hard work.

It takes time, which I don't have a lot of, but it works.

As teachers we don't do enough of praising the good behavior and hard work.

One college I worked at the staff would nominate a student every 2 weeks and send a 'praise postcard' home. It could be for anything, particularly good work, coming in when dealing with something personal, supporting another student.

I don't like names on the board/chart systems and they wouldn't be my preference in my classroom, however they have their place and I'm not an early years specialist so wouldn't comment on their use in EYFS/KS1.

All children have the right to learn and be safe at school. An inconsistent behaviour policy doesn't allow for that. If I had to choose between a school that promotes calm, safe environment for learning with a chart policy and a school that spent a disproportionate amount of time prioritising a minority of students at the expense of the majority then I would choose the first school.

Thank you, no she's not "normal". She's likely got ASD and ADHD, both run in my family. She's in SEN classes for a lot of extra curricular stuff but doesn't have a diagnosis. The school have put us forward for CAHMS but there's no SENCO to make any classroom adjustments.

Like I said, it's not the traffic light system in of itself, it's the bigger picture. They use this system because it works quickly without considering the effects of it on a lot of children, I know from chatting to others at pick up maybe 15-20% of the kids are struggling with it in one way or another.

There was a high needs, non verbal autistic child that spent much of his time on red last year, who has now moved to special provision - I spent much of my time thinking how fucking dare they do that to him. He's not being naughty, it's like ABA on steroids. My daughter told me "I don't play with him because he's always on red face".

There's another little boy who's adopted, and the person he is living with isn't really meeting his emotional needs- not through apathy but through ignorance. He comes in, displays attachment issues, and is on the red face because he's "naughty". All the other kids know he's a red face kid and use that to form their own opinions of him.

The school we are moving to has high expectations of behaviour, and actually every daytime visit (3) I've been on I've seen calm, focused, well behaved classrooms- unlike the current school (I volunteer). They use more carrot and less stick, perfect for my bright but sensitive, people pleasing kid.

@LolaSmiles

I think the vast majority parents would agree but I think the key word is choose here.

Some schools do have a disproportionate number of children with either SEND, mental health problems potentially resulting from parental or other external issues and children less likely respond to traditional punishment e.g. detentions.

if you live in a socio economically deprived areas of is more likely your house will fall in the catchment area of such schools. I think one thing apparent from this thread is that schools are hugely under resourced and incapable of putting in all the differentiated educational and discipline policies that may help with their student cohort.

I think parents very much want the best for their children and if money allowed would possibly look at a house move (or even private provision) to avoid the above.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kes_(film)

I read the book of this film , Kes, at school and although set in the 60a the issues are still prevent today. I think in a perfect world we would have more teachers having the time to deliver attention and praise as here but sadly it's not realsitic.