Why do we send children to school so young

[sandcastles1]

Just that really - I'm feeling really disgruntled with our school system and why we make children go into full time education from the age of 4. My dc just started and is enjoying some of it and hating lots of it. She loved the first week when it was half days. For the past four years she has been either with me or her dad - we would take her out into the woods every day. Now she's cooped up in a small room/playground for the whole time. I could have home schooled her I know but didn't think that was the best thing socially. I can see the benefits of them going but 5 days a week 9-330 just seems harsh. Why couldn't it be three days. I know up until 5 we can take them out but just wondering how others feel as I'm missing my daughter a lot, she doesn't want to be there most of the time and I really now see the virtues of other countries that don't start full time until 7. Yes it means we can work, but why is that the norm? People that don't want to spend more time with their kids could find other care the rest of the time.

I agree with you OP, DS2 is summer born so he has started reception this year having only just turned 4. Just watching him queue up you can see the vast physical differences between him and those children who are on the cusp of turning 5.

I would have deferred him if schools were more accepting. The only reason I haven't is because school wanted to put him straight into year 1 next year. School have already been in touch to say they are concerned about how frustrated he is at the new routine. He absolutely loved nursery

We expect far too much from such small children.

@Catra You need to speak to the SEN team at the local authority. Your DD would possibly be allowed to defer based on her being prem, her date of birth and her additional needs. My understanding is you'd still get the 30 hours.

I think it's harsh to assume that just because OP has said either her or her DP has been at home with the DC that they have it easy / don't have to work. I know my life is totally different to how it could be if I also worked, BUT I have made a choice to go without many things and in turn my children do to for me to be a SAHM.

Not all children are the same - my DT’s (July born) started at 4 years and two months - they also did breakfast and after school club - they had no problems and enjoyed school from the start but they were use to full time nursery (from age six months) so not much changed for them.

I went to Kindergarten in Germany and it was playing and learning about the world, social skills etc. I started school at 7 and my classmates and I learned to read at that point and were able to read by Christmas.

It’s much easier to learn to read in German than in English though. My kids learnt to read in German at the same time as English and they picked the german up much quicker despite hardly being able to speak it at all. English requires more practice because there are so many more rules to learn and exceptions to memorise. I think the same applies for many Scandinavian languages. It’s not a fair comparison.

I just think it stinks that the main reason is to enable people to work

Rubbish. In previous generations most mothers didn't work! Doesn't sound like you've done much to help the transition!

Just watching him queue up you can see the vast physical differences between him and those children who are on the cusp of turning 5.

There were two kids in DD’s class who when lined up by birthday were right next to each other, both had spring birthdays so were some of the oldest in the class. One was by far the tallest in the class and the other was the shortest. Age isn’t the only factor in those physical differences.

@SherryPalmer

I went to Kindergarten in Germany and it was playing and learning about the world, social skills etc. I started school at 7 and my classmates and I learned to read at that point and were able to read by Christmas.

It’s much easier to learn to read in German than in English though. My kids learnt to read in German at the same time as English and they picked the german up much quicker despite hardly being able to speak it at all. English requires more practice because there are so many more rules to learn and exceptions to memorise. I think the same applies for many Scandinavian languages. It’s not a fair comparison.

Plus the fact that they will have been doing lots of pre reading skills in KG to prepare them for starting to read in school. Learning to read is a long process and doesn't begin with phonics as some people seem to think

MayorGoodwaysChicken - I don't expect the system to change to suit me, that would be utterly ridiculous and selfish. What I am witnessing is a lot of very unhappy children standing outside reception not wanting to go in. A lot of mothers are talking about how their children are saying they don't want to go in or aren't eating etc. I recognise there is a period of adjustment - there always is for anything new for anyone no matter what age. I query whether this really is the best system for the children and what the motivations for it are. It was a discussion topic in a discussion forum - no expectations beyond that. Genuinely just interested why people think the system we have created for mainstream is definitely the best it can be . After the past couple of weeks I am not so covinced. The school is fantastic with wonderful teachers and has one of the best ratings in the area. So this isn't a school issue. I can only reiterate that overall my DC is settling quite well. It's not that I don't think she will cope and indeed in many aspects is already flourishing. I am just not sure that the 9-320 5 day week is the absolute best format for the children and I have read nothing that convinces me otherwise. I can see the benefits it gives to the parents in enabling us (I also work full time) to work. But - do we all absolutely want this? What if society was structured so we work less but earn the same? Some jobs, not all, can be condensed into less hours and several companies are starting to do the 4 day week. Other jobs could be done as job shares so we had double the number of say ambulance drivers/ doctors/ firepeople so the 7 days were covered but the individuals worked less. This only works if salaries stay the same but if society overhauled itself there would be ample money to maintain- if not increase - salaries for these sectors as well. If people weren't overworked we'd get a better service. We have huge numbers of unemployed at the moment and this could have been a real opportunity to change the fabric of society. Do I want it to happen? Yes. Do I want it to happen for me? Yes. Do I want it to happen for just me? No - obviously I think it's a good idea but I think it would create a better society. I wanted to know if others felt the same - but it appears I am in the minority and that will give me pause to think. People will say I'm naive and wanting a Utopian society - but really, is it, why?

@Goldbar I don’t know of any schools where four year olds sit all day at a desk. The school we’ve picked for our older children has forest and beach school plus large outside area for reception.

What I am witnessing is a lot of very unhappy children standing outside reception not wanting to go in. A lot of mothers are talking about how their children are saying they don't want to go in or aren't eating etc

I just don’t see this and I have a pre-school age dc. So many happy children. Some need help settling in in nursery but by reception they are pretty much fine and look good at going in.

Perhaps not all. But I don’t get the picture you are

@sandcastles1 of course you are talking about some unachievable, utopian society. Where are you finding DOUBLE the amount of doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, soldiers, police officers, fire fighters? There are six million public sector workers, so we’d straight away need another six. You want them to work half the time but for the same pay. Where is all that money coming from. You sound incredibly naive to how society actually functions.

@elbea - I'm not naive to how this society functions. That is the whole point - could we do it differently and have a different type of society.

@sandcastles1 - you sound very naive - society doesn’t work as you describe and I wouldn’t want it to. Where are all these unhappy Reception children? Mine are older but were very happy to get dropped off at breakfast club each day ready for school. I’m also a Governor at a local primary school and the feedback from parents and staff about this year’s Reception class has been very positive.

@MarshaBradyo

What I am witnessing is a lot of very unhappy children standing outside reception not wanting to go in. A lot of mothers are talking about how their children are saying they don't want to go in or aren't eating etc

I just don’t see this and I have a pre-school age dc. So many happy children. Some need help settling in in nursery but by reception they are pretty much fine and look good at going in.

Perhaps not all. But I don’t get the picture you are

I don’t see this either. My daughter went to nursery 3 days per week from 1 and then 5 days a week from 3 including preschool. They all loved it. I saw the odd child upset about going in but this was in the minority.

Nearly all the children in her reception class run in and don’t even look back at their parents. Which is how I’d like it to be. Shows a good attachment to me, that they’re able to go off happily and know that we’ll be there to collect them at the end of the day

You think the answer is to allow everyone to work half the hours for the same pay? How exactly are you funding this

And there aren't huge numbers of unemployed at the moment by the way.

I don't relate to your view of all these unhappy reception children either. Not at all.

@sandcastles1

MayorGoodwaysChicken - I don't expect the system to change to suit me, that would be utterly ridiculous and selfish. What I am witnessing is a lot of very unhappy children standing outside reception not wanting to go in. A lot of mothers are talking about how their children are saying they don't want to go in or aren't eating etc. I recognise there is a period of adjustment - there always is for anything new for anyone no matter what age. I query whether this really is the best system for the children and what the motivations for it are. It was a discussion topic in a discussion forum - no expectations beyond that. Genuinely just interested why people think the system we have created for mainstream is definitely the best it can be . After the past couple of weeks I am not so covinced. The school is fantastic with wonderful teachers and has one of the best ratings in the area. So this isn't a school issue. I can only reiterate that overall my DC is settling quite well. It's not that I don't think she will cope and indeed in many aspects is already flourishing. I am just not sure that the 9-320 5 day week is the absolute best format for the children and I have read nothing that convinces me otherwise. I can see the benefits it gives to the parents in enabling us (I also work full time) to work. But - do we all absolutely want this? What if society was structured so we work less but earn the same? Some jobs, not all, can be condensed into less hours and several companies are starting to do the 4 day week. Other jobs could be done as job shares so we had double the number of say ambulance drivers/ doctors/ firepeople so the 7 days were covered but the individuals worked less. This only works if salaries stay the same but if society overhauled itself there would be ample money to maintain- if not increase - salaries for these sectors as well. If people weren't overworked we'd get a better service. We have huge numbers of unemployed at the moment and this could have been a real opportunity to change the fabric of society. Do I want it to happen? Yes. Do I want it to happen for me? Yes. Do I want it to happen for just me? No - obviously I think it's a good idea but I think it would create a better society. I wanted to know if others felt the same - but it appears I am in the minority and that will give me pause to think. People will say I'm naive and wanting a Utopian society - but really, is it, why?

Except for two, all of the women who drop their kids off at the nursery where I work are SAHM. This idea on MN that it’s only working mums dropping their kids to nursery / childcare needs to stop.

Ozanj - I don't think it is just working mum's dropping kids off, I'm sorry if I've said something that makes you think otherwise. I do think the education system has been designed predominantly to enable people to work. I don't think the starting point for a 5 day a week 9-320 was studying children and thinking - yeah, that's what they need - but from a starting point of asking what do children need and how can we fit that into our lives in the best way to cause least disruption to ourselves.

Catra Alongside speaking to the SEN team as mafsfan suggested, If you're on facebook, I recommend looking up the Flexible Admissions for Summer Borns, which has a lot of people knowledgable about the funding around that and entry for kids born premature.

Genuinely just interested why people think the system we have created for mainstream is definitely the best it can be

I don't think most are saying that this is the best it can be, but neither are the other systems being used as examples of how things should be. No system is perfect and I don't think any of them were built solely with the idea of being best for kids. It's always been a mix of what's best for parents, politicians, whoever is paying the bills...

We don't all need to want this, it just needs to give enough benefits and social incentives even with its flaws, including from how it enables work, and not having enough of a disincentive nor a workable alternative that has enough backing by the public for change to be made for things to stay as they are. A lot of them want to play around the edges and shove more in, but any major change is going to need strong backing.

I can see a secondary school from my front window, and there are a lot of miserable looking kids. Whether it's school making them that way, I've no idea. I know parents of secondary age kids who discuss their kids not wanting to go or being really tired and off their food. I doubt many would say they aren't enough and honestly, I'm not sure how just shrinking the hours would be of much benefit. All the places pointed to, as many have said, have other provisions involved (and I don't think they work less).

I don't get what just reducing hours at school would accomplish, it would likely just fuck staff over if they're going to be judged by the same standards and content as now.

My spouse is meant to work 4 on/4 off, but that's not reality with how things are. A lot of places don't want to double their staff, many are trying to keep staff costs down where possible - and all the work that goes into that, and with many areas dealing with empty vacancies that can't be filled, it seems off to think we could just double people in some professions. That would take years of training up a lot more people, and a massive cultural shift likely involving enforced legislation to get to there.

@sandcastles1

Ozanj - I don't think it is just working mum's dropping kids off, I'm sorry if I've said something that makes you think otherwise. I do think the education system has been designed predominantly to enable people to work. I don't think the starting point for a 5 day a week 9-320 was studying children and thinking - yeah, that's what they need - but from a starting point of asking what do children need and how can we fit that into our lives in the best way to cause least disruption to ourselves.

I don’t think the education system has been built around parents working - school hours are short compared with the working day which is why we use wrap around care in breakfast and after school club.

@sandcastles1 you must be naive to think that the country could function by halving people’s hours, paying them the same and hiring double the amount of people. Where are these extra people coming from? Who is going to pay them? Where will they all live? Who is going to fund the infrastructure for all of these extra people? Where are we going to get the food for them?

It’s very easy to criticise the government but when you suggest frankly ridiculous alternatives you lose all credibility.

Under the new EYFS curriculum children won't be sitting at their desk all the time (and they weren't under the old curriculum either)

I have just spent the morning in a local school and the children all appeared happy and engaged.

Maybe if your child is socially and linguistically streets ahead of the other children maybe you have spent too much time hot housing her and that is why she hasn't settled so much in a more relaxed environment.

Aside from the reasons mentioned here about society and work, I totally agree that 4 is too young. I would prefer to see kids start the year they turn 5 and have the first yr play based.

With my kids, one now in yr 4, she loved reception and the hours were fine for her. Her school has a very play based ethos at reception where I know of other local schools that are less so.

My son will start next year and I think he'll be ok apart from the duration of the days, I seriously think 5, 6 hour days will exhaust him and I am contemplating keeping him at home on a Wednesday until he is 5 which will be the 2nd term. But I think he will really struggle with yr 1 when they have to sit down for longer periods. It's at this point that I think they are too young, so would prefer to have 5/6 yr olds starting at reception and more structured learning when 6/7. But it's not going to happen as many posters have pointed out!

I don’t think the education system has been built around parents working - school hours are short compared with the working day which is why we use wrap around care in breakfast and after school club.

Agreed - if you were designing a system around the needs of working parents it would a) cover at least one end of the standard working day and b) not have much longer holidays than most workers have available as annual leave. Also, the 'standard' school day is older than current working patterns.