Why do we send children to school so young

[sandcastles1]

Just that really - I'm feeling really disgruntled with our school system and why we make children go into full time education from the age of 4. My dc just started and is enjoying some of it and hating lots of it. She loved the first week when it was half days. For the past four years she has been either with me or her dad - we would take her out into the woods every day. Now she's cooped up in a small room/playground for the whole time. I could have home schooled her I know but didn't think that was the best thing socially. I can see the benefits of them going but 5 days a week 9-330 just seems harsh. Why couldn't it be three days. I know up until 5 we can take them out but just wondering how others feel as I'm missing my daughter a lot, she doesn't want to be there most of the time and I really now see the virtues of other countries that don't start full time until 7. Yes it means we can work, but why is that the norm? People that don't want to spend more time with their kids could find other care the rest of the time.

Most countries where kids start school at 7 have really strong preschool structures that the majority of parents (working or not) send their kids to. It makes teaching them at 7 far easier - in some countries schools don’t even need to teach kids how to eat, or change their nappies, or read or basic maths: they come in with that knowledge.

We’re a really long way off from that.

schoolwhattodo I've just seen your thread. It's such a quandary isn't it. I think taking them out to put them back in in a few months (mine is summer born too) has it's issues too and I'd worry about joining a year group that has already spent a year together.

BOOMshakeshakeshaketheroom - I wish I'd looked into and thought about home schooling/ other option more carefully. I work so it would be a tough call. Three days a week at school or half days would be manageable as I freelance so can be flexible. But I think I'd want her to be in formal ed by 7 or 8 and I'd worry that if she hadn't been with the others she'd find fitting in hard.

Thurlow - she's not hating it per se, there's bit she enjoys but she has never been a moaner and said she doesn't want to do things. This is the first time I've heard her talk negatively about doing something and she says she doesn't want to go all day. She got punched inthe stomache and kicked in the leg the other day and nobody saw or did anything. It's that sort of thing you think - why aren't I there. I'm not suggesting people who are happy don't want to be with or love their kids completely just saying I wish the system wasn't geared towards people working five days a week. Why not do what's best for the kids - which I think is less schooling so young - if people want to then work 5 days that's their choice and they can sort out how to do it differently rather than the other way round, as it is at the moment. At the moment, people who want their children to go less have to opt out of the system. It's about having a different 'norm' as the starting point and slightly changing the fabric of society. Other cultures do it and I for the first time really see the benefit. I'm on a rollercoaster now that I don't feel I can get off of and it's frustrating.

@Keepitonthedownlow

School starts at age 5 here in Scotland, and the first year is play based. That seems right to me. Nursery is 3-4/5.

I was thinking the same, I'm in Scotland as well. Nursery typically from age 3, then Primary 1 at age 5 (4.5 at the earliest if their birthday is after the start of the new year), which is still mostly play-based anyway with a bit of formal, sit down at the table style education thrown in as a taster for the rest of their time in education. I agree that 4 is on the young side, but they're hardly sitting there learning long division and such...unless there's something I'm missing!

No 2 children are the same and some just take a bit longer to settle - the lockdown situation probably hasn't helped either. It's a chance for the child to learn a bit of independence for a few hours a day as well - they get to socialise with other children, meet their teachers (learn about other people in authority), stretch their legs, broaden their minds so when they come home from school, they get to tell their parents all the things they did in the space of 6 hours. I think school is a wonderful thing.
Similarly, no 2 families are the same and, unless there was at least one SAHP to look after the child until the age of 6/7, many families would struggle to balance work and family life.

People have this idea that in scandinavia children don't go to school til 7 and Finland still beats UK hands down in the PISA tests so why do we bother?.. Scandinavian nurseries are (generally) much higher quality, cheaper, with better qualified people working in them. The children are learning and socialising in a less structured environment.

Yes, people make it sound like in countries where children don't go to something called 'school' until 6/7 they're all just at home playing in the garden until then. In a lot of those countries a lot more children are in a group setting from 1 or 2 than in the UK and by 4/5 they're doing very similar things to what English children do in reception, they're just doing it in a place called 'kindergarten' or similar.

Reception is play based and very much like nursery. I think part of the problem in this country is that there are many parents who just don't give a damn about their children's education, and plenty of others who struggle to afford to provide the basics for their child. By making education compulsory from age 5, they're ensuring that these children get a positive start to life, which is vital imo.

If traditional school started later the government would have to sort out early years childcare and they really don't want to.

This, imo. And the inaccurate comparisons with other countries aren’t helpful - friends have just moved abroad to a country where all dc are enrolled at school on their 4th birthday. Want to guess the country? Lovely, liberal Holland. Meanwhile in chain-them-to-the-desk Russia you can choose whether your child starts at 6 or 7. It’s a hugely nuanced issue.

I would say though that the UK’s (or England’s?) crappy, patchwork EY provision has a lot to answer for.

I do also feel like transitions (or lack thereof) could be something that plays a big role in whether a child settles in well or not. I remember having a 'tour' of the classrooms etc when I was in nursery (age 4.5, probably not long before the summer holidays before my first year in Primary 1) so I knew what to expect. I'd seen my older brother going in to school and (always wanting to be just like my big brother) I was so excited to put on my uniform and go to school (there is photographic evidence of this). My mum would walk me to school in the summer holidays so I knew what to expect on school days (she walked me to school throughout term time as well).

@Peanutsandchilli

Reception is play based and very much like nursery. I think part of the problem in this country is that there are many parents who just don't give a damn about their children's education, and plenty of others who struggle to afford to provide the basics for their child. By making education compulsory from age 5, they're ensuring that these children get a positive start to life, which is vital imo.

Totally agree.

I have a friend who was able to take her DS out of school on Fridays in reception year - you could ask your school if they'd consider this?

Yes, speak to the head sbout your concerns. If your DD is summer born the school might agree to half days for the first term. They're not legally obliged to be in school till the term after they turn 5.

Realistically it's just not viable for parents to have even more time off work, it's bad enough as it is. I think your argument should be around what schools are actually like, rather than whether young children should go, because unless we can revert to a culture where one working adult in the household is enough, they simply need to. The world does not revolve around them or stop because they are born.

As an aside though, lots of children are absolutely fine with school and ready to learn by that age. It's always going to be difficult to find a system that suits everybody.

Yes, people make it sound like in countries where children don't go to something called 'school' until 6/7 they're all just at home playing in the garden until then. In a lot of those countries a lot more children are in a group setting from 1 or 2 than in the UK and by 4/5 they're doing very similar things to what English children do in reception, they're just doing it in a place called 'kindergarten' or similar.

Exactly this.

A friend moved to Denmark and found it very strange to be a SAHM, compared to in the UK. She she found it really hard to meet people during the day as working full-time is much more the cultural norm, even for parents of young children (although working long hours isn't).

No one is forcing you to send her OP, you have other options. Defer her start a year as she is summer born or home school. Your post comes across as why should I have to do this I want the whole system changed to suit my lifestyle - why should it suit you over everyone else? My child is summer born, they are loving school and thriving in that environment. The school is amazing, he comes home every day covered in paint and with shoes full of sand from playing in the sandpit. It really seems very similar to nursery to me. I don't need them there full time for childcare and I certainly don't want him away from me as you nastily implied, but he is doing great. Maybe once you decided on this path (which lets face it you've probably done because of it being the easy option - deferring and homeschooling take hard work) you should have put some effort into preparing your child for school better.

@Keepitonthedownlow

School starts at age 5 here in Scotland, and the first year is play based. That seems right to me. Nursery is 3-4/5.

Play based in Scotland is a buzz word very few if any school do it well, it can’t be okay based when you have non-optional tasks everyday and you are in a small classroom with no free access to outdoors, nursery is play based p1 and 2 is a poor interpretation of it. Also many kids in Scotland start at 4.

I don't recognise your description either. My DS loved school from the first day. He didn't find it any more tiring than preschool and was never clingy or sad about going. And he has a late June birthday so was among the youngest in the class.

I'm sorry you and your DD are finding it difficult, but that doesn't mean the current system is wrong for every child.

I think the problem is that you're in a small minority, OP. Most parents use their 15 preschool hours even if they don't work, so keeping a child entirely home until school is unusual, and there's very little clamour for school hours to be shorter; that isn't what most parents want. Which doesn't make you wrong but makes wishing for a new system that suits you a waste of time, if you feel strongly about this you need to think seriously about home educating. The world isn't going to change for you, but you can actively make a decision to do something different if you want to.

They don't really. Lots of children are at nursery from 12 months old.
Mine were more than ready for school in reception year after 3 years of nursery.

But even the countries which start school later don’t have children running around the woods everyday until they’re 7. They are in nursery or childcare.
It’s not the formal learning so much as the learning to be without you, and play with other children.
My girls were all with me until reception and yes, it was a lovely wholesome time with dog walks and woods and baking and skipping. But they love/loved reception!! Meeting new people, new books and stories, making bug hotels in the playground, painting everyday!
And nearly half the year is a school holiday so loads of time for running around the woods then, and at the weekends.
Maybe a different school with a more outdoorsy focus would be more fun for your daughter?

urbanbuddha - thanks I've been thinking about it but I don't want to make her feel different. She isn't struggling as much as some of the others and does really love some of it. She's very advanced for her age in terms of speaking and writing etc. so needs aspects of it. I just wish it was half days or fewer days for all of them. They don't need 30 hours of play based learning away from a home setting at this age. I can give her lots of it and I think she'd then be happier - but she wouldn't be happy going into a school where she was the odd one out not going in on Friday or doing half days.

I did look into montessori and doing 5 days 9-1 but couldn't afford the fees as the school was private. I'm wishing now I had perhaps crippled myself financially - but that does then have repercussions for DC too.

Can't you defer? Is she a summerborn? I sent my eldest when she was CSA as her birthday is at the end of August so I just sent her the following year for reception instead.

Mine loved reception as well, it was a really short day compared to their nursery days as well.
They were well prepped for school though, were used to lots of different nursery and preschool settings and enjoyed the activities.

Yes, they do interact with a lot of children and some of those interactions will be challenging but they will have experienced this before at preschool or just at the park surely?

We cant always be there so we need to prepare them for that and we need to prepare ourselves for that or we just model that being away from us is a terribly sad thing and not the first steps to a sense of self.

@BOOMshakeshakeshaketheroom

Push against it. Write to your MP. Pull your kid out if you can. It's way too much, way too soon, imo. (I home ed my children.)

It got us out of reach of violence for 7 hours a day and meant we could read and write.

At least three of us had regular non accidental injuries that nobody knew about - by going to school from rising 5 (albeit my entry was put off until the very last second), there was finally somebody in a position to see the bruises.

It's not too much, too soon for every child.

You are coming from a privileged position. Most jobs can’t be done in a few days. Next time you go to the hospital are you going to make sure is only between Tuesday and Thursday? Maybe middle class jobs in offices that involve a lot of meetings can.
Reception and year 1 are very play based and no different fromKindergartens in other countries. It just means that it is access for all in this country as opposed to in the US, for example, where presumably you have to pay for it and therefore not everyone can access it.

Perhaps home education would suit in the early years or consider a Steiner school.

@Hardbackwriter

People have this idea that in scandinavia children don't go to school til 7 and Finland still beats UK hands down in the PISA tests so why do we bother?.. Scandinavian nurseries are (generally) much higher quality, cheaper, with better qualified people working in them. The children are learning and socialising in a less structured environment.

Yes, people make it sound like in countries where children don't go to something called 'school' until 6/7 they're all just at home playing in the garden until then. In a lot of those countries a lot more children are in a group setting from 1 or 2 than in the UK and by 4/5 they're doing very similar things to what English children do in reception, they're just doing it in a place called 'kindergarten' or similar.

Yes this is true in India too. Government nurseries, temples, gurdwaras, mosques, all welcome kids who are potty trained (ie over 1) & will teach them how to recite songs, arithmetic etc. It’s part of the reason even 6 yos who don’t go to school regularly have strong enough arithmetic and literacy skills to help out in businesses.

For some running around the woods is their childcare;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_kindergarten