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Primary education

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Why do we send children to school so young

511 replies

sandcastles1 · 20/09/2021 10:35

Just that really - I'm feeling really disgruntled with our school system and why we make children go into full time education from the age of 4. My dc just started and is enjoying some of it and hating lots of it. She loved the first week when it was half days. For the past four years she has been either with me or her dad - we would take her out into the woods every day. Now she's cooped up in a small room/playground for the whole time. I could have home schooled her I know but didn't think that was the best thing socially. I can see the benefits of them going but 5 days a week 9-330 just seems harsh. Why couldn't it be three days. I know up until 5 we can take them out but just wondering how others feel as I'm missing my daughter a lot, she doesn't want to be there most of the time and I really now see the virtues of other countries that don't start full time until 7. Yes it means we can work, but why is that the norm? People that don't want to spend more time with their kids could find other care the rest of the time.

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BrilloSolar · 20/09/2021 16:22

The more you post OP, the more you sound like you can only see the world from your place of privilege. You say about wanting a different system and different society, but yeah, you'd literally have to change everything about the society we live in, not just education.

So to allow children up to age 7 to attend school just mornings or 4 short days, we'd need one parent to be able to be either not working or working VERY part time. So we need to set up the economy and house prices to allow this - that worked very well in the past didn't it for women and equality. And that doesn't account for single parents. They would only be able to work very part time, wouldn't be able to study full time. As I'm assuming in this new society you want EVERY'S child to have the opportunity to just go to school more part time. So we have to allow those on low wages to also be home all the time their child is. As you said, those who CHOOSE for their child to be in child care more could do so, so therefore we have to ensure that it's an absolute choice to put your child into childcare outside your utopian school hours. But I'm not sure how that works with your idea that the current set up is to benefit adults and not children, because if it's still up to the parent to decide, then how will we ensure that they make the best decision for the child and not just because they really enjoy their work and want to progress in their career without 7 years out (assuming only one child).

And we've also not yet addressed the issue of abused ad neglected children, some of whom have shared their experience above. Because you can't actually have this new society set up in the best interest of children (your plan for shorter/ less formal education for longer) whilst also giving adults the choice of what's right for their child, when a significant number of parents don't chose to do what's right for their child.

It all sounds like this would take a hell of a lot of money. What are your plans for the tax system?

It all sounds very difficult. Could you point to a country/ culture/ society that you think does it 'right'?

Actually, what it sounds like is that you want a system that works for you, from your position of privilege, where YOUR child can attend school for shorter periods. Or you want to completely change our whole entire society and economy.

sandcastles1 · 20/09/2021 16:26

marmaladehound - totally agree.
toomuchlaundry - I haven't done any hot housing. She's learnt everything through play and asking a lot of questions, as all children do, 'what this' 'why is x like so' 'let's play x' 'how do you do x' and having someone available to answer them or look up the answer - which sadly not all children do.

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MarshaBradyo · 20/09/2021 16:28

Why don’t you homeschool op?

Parker231 · 20/09/2021 16:29

@sandcastles1 - rather than wanting to change the system which is unlikely to happen and nor would I want it to, perhaps focus on why your DD is unhappy at school.

sandcastles1 · 20/09/2021 16:31

BrilloSolar - yes to changing our whole entire society and economy, that's exactly what I'm saying but I know it won't happen, not enough people want it to.

How do you define privilege? You seem to think I am, so wondering what your definition of it is so I know how I fit it?

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sandcastles1 · 20/09/2021 16:38

Marshabradyo - I should have looked into homeschooling as a more serious option. I don't think it is right for a long term option/ once children hit 7/8 and I didn't want DC to then feel different when she went into mainstream. But I recognise I should have perhaps thought about it more now I know what I know.

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toomuchlaundry · 20/09/2021 16:50

@sandcastles1 if you think a number of parents aren't as good as you at answering questions etc, why would you be encouraging more children to be staying at home and not attending school.

If you work how do you fit all this time you spend with your child and how would you fit in home schooling?

gogohm · 20/09/2021 16:54

Don't be fooled, most countries do, they call it preschool or kindergarten but it's very similar to our reception. At least school is free unlike preschool in many countries. My DD's did well at school from the start having been in half day preschool the year prior

sandcastles1 · 20/09/2021 16:57

@toomuchlaundry - I didn't say that parents weren't as good at me as answering questions etc, there was no qualitative content in my post - I said she had someone available to answer all the questions and not all children do for whatever reason.

As I put in a previous post - I've been in a lucky position in that I freelance so fit my working hours around my DC. I've done this predominantly by starting work very early before she wakes up and then working evenings and on the two days she's not been with me but with her dad. Now she's at school full time - my working life is a heck of a lot easier and more relaxed, but I remain unconvinced it's the best thing for her. I would like her to have a bit less time there, for her, that is all.

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baggingareaunattended · 20/09/2021 17:08

I'll summarise the whole deferring / delaying your summer born / SEN/ premature child's entry into school...

Find out who controls your local schools you are in catchment or interested in. If they are academies or church schools you need to convince their board and the head of the delay to entry of reception. If it's a Local authority controlled school or schools you just apply for the declaration at the normal time of school applications and they will sort it out for all LA controlled schools - much easier. Saying that certain LA's as they call themselves, are open minded and grant this and some aren't.

Consider where you will have your child for the "extra year" my child was at two preschools, one the school nursery would not keep him and the other council one was not keen, they said he had out grown the place. So I had to find a new place, which I did, but I wasn't entirely happy with the setting, but run down. If they are changing nurseries, for just a year would it be better to just start school?

View the schools as usual. Apply as usual.

You will then fill out a form for the declaration if LA. If granted you will be able to withdraw at a later date and still have your school place. Children can change so much in a short amount of time.

Decide what evidence you are going to present to convince your LA and/ or school head that your child should be allowed to enter reception a year later than their cohort. Any issues with documentation like speech assessments, hearing, any medical conditions or additional needs. Now in theory you do not have to have any reason to delay, but this is on the forms and of course you can exercise your rights by just saying "because I want to." If no paperwork or conditions they often consider emotional maturity, issues with separation, confidence, toileting.

Think it through, is it best for your child? You will meet so much resistance to delaying. You will certainly be told but most heads they can support a summer born.

I was granted the declaration of my child and in the end I sent him to school on time. He has done really well, but really struggles with tiredness and separation still in year 1. Did I do the right thing. I don't know, no, maybe I wish I had delayed, but everyone was against it preschool, my family, DPs family, other parents get very funny.

In my personal opinion you should not start your child part time as they will miss so much. The learning of phonics for example is much more complicated than just letter sounds that may have been covered in preschool. They will be covering the blends ( diagraphs and triagraphs ) plus all the repetition of the sight words and numbers. Sometimes it's the terminology that is used at school is so different to how we might play with them ( Number bonds, number sentences. ) Reception is magical and they learn just from being around other and soaking it in.

Other considerations if you delay is age based clubs/ sports , not being with school year. If you stay in area your child should not be asked to skip a year to "catch up" but some issues can arise if moving areas to a less informed LA, especially on the move to secondary. However things are progressing, this was not part of my decision.

BTW I was really worried about the transition into year one, but on deciding to send him I worked very hard with supporting his learning in year R and he's doing fine academically. But there is more to a child than academics, he misses his toys, he's tired, emotional.

toomuchlaundry · 20/09/2021 17:33

Do you think you have made it harder for your child and made school a much bigger thing in her mind by taking her to look at school every day in the summer holiday?

Many teachers are parents, who do you think will teach children in school if they decide they only want their child in school one day a week, where will the extra teachers come from to fill the gaps

SkinnyMirror · 20/09/2021 17:35

@sandcastles1

Ozanj - I don't think it is just working mum's dropping kids off, I'm sorry if I've said something that makes you think otherwise. I do think the education system has been designed predominantly to enable people to work. I don't think the starting point for a 5 day a week 9-320 was studying children and thinking - yeah, that's what they need - but from a starting point of asking what do children need and how can we fit that into our lives in the best way to cause least disruption to ourselves.
If the school system had been designed for people to work the hours would actually cover a working day. It doesn't.

My experience is that school expect /is designed around the idea that there is a parent at home or working very part time.

sandcastles1 · 20/09/2021 17:57

@toomuchlaundry - no I don't, it was very casual - we have to walk past it to get to our house so it was a passing comment and not a special outing. She was interested and asked questions. As I keep saying - she isn't any more troubled by it than the other children I see. She is finding it easier each day to go in and is one of the most social there.

Re your comment about teachers being parents - that's exactly what happens in her school. Her teacher has time off each week to look after her own child and a cover teacher takes over. I'm in favour - I think different input is good.

I am not against school - just 5 days of 30 hours in the one setting. I don't think it's necessary at that age and nothing anyone has said has demonstrated exactly what the child is gaining in 30 hours of a formal setting that they couldn't get in 20 in a formal setting and 10 in something else - whether that's parents or if people don't want that because they want/need to work then something else. It's about what you make the norm/mainstream and who then has to opt in or out. I think it would be interesting if the opportunity to have more time at home was set up as the norm/mainstream and others had to find alternatives if that wasn't for them rather than the other way round which is what we have now.

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Simonjt · 20/09/2021 18:12

@sandcastles1

Marshabradyo - I should have looked into homeschooling as a more serious option. I don't think it is right for a long term option/ once children hit 7/8 and I didn't want DC to then feel different when she went into mainstream. But I recognise I should have perhaps thought about it more now I know what I know.
It is still an option, she doesn’t have to stay at school if you don’t want her to, you can change your mind if that works better for your daughter.
SkinnyMirror · 20/09/2021 18:15

It's about what you make the norm/mainstream and who then has to opt in or out. I think it would be interesting if the opportunity to have more time at home was set up as the norm/mainstream and others had to find alternatives if that wasn't for them rather than the other way round which is what we have now.

What alternatives do you suggest?

Gwenhwyfar · 20/09/2021 18:15

@Megistotherium

My country doesn't start school until 6/7. But it doesn't mean the children stay at home. They have kindergarten from 4, and by the time they start school, they start proper formal learning. And in England, reception is not really formal, so is yr1, quite similar to kindergarten in my country, I think.
Where I live, children start formal schooling around 6, but they are AT SCHOOL/nursery class from around 2.5!
Comedycook · 20/09/2021 18:19

You've said your dc is gradually starting to settle in and is popular. There isn't really a problem then is there? You dislike the system but you won't change it. It caters to the majority. In the nicest possible way, your DC is no different to any child starting reception. She doing ok and will probably be a little tired whilst she gets used to it but that's the same for them all.

sandcastles1 · 20/09/2021 18:24

Comedycook - I only don't want to change it because I don't want to make her different, especially now we've started this journey. I think not doing what the others are makes it harder, but I may be wrong on that and I am talking in a generalisation as it will suit others. I simply think there is a debate to be had about whether the 'norm' and current 'mainstream' really is what suits children best. Yes my DC is settling - but I remain convinced that there would be benefits to more time at home - if that was what everyone was doing.

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Parker231 · 20/09/2021 18:28

If school hours were shortened, DC’s like mine would go to childcare for the missing school hours. They would have hated that as they were desperate to be at school. They always moaned if we collected them early from after school club - they loved the time before and after school to play with their friends

MarshaBradyo · 20/09/2021 18:30

[quote sandcastles1]@toomuchlaundry - no I don't, it was very casual - we have to walk past it to get to our house so it was a passing comment and not a special outing. She was interested and asked questions. As I keep saying - she isn't any more troubled by it than the other children I see. She is finding it easier each day to go in and is one of the most social there.

Re your comment about teachers being parents - that's exactly what happens in her school. Her teacher has time off each week to look after her own child and a cover teacher takes over. I'm in favour - I think different input is good.

I am not against school - just 5 days of 30 hours in the one setting. I don't think it's necessary at that age and nothing anyone has said has demonstrated exactly what the child is gaining in 30 hours of a formal setting that they couldn't get in 20 in a formal setting and 10 in something else - whether that's parents or if people don't want that because they want/need to work then something else. It's about what you make the norm/mainstream and who then has to opt in or out. I think it would be interesting if the opportunity to have more time at home was set up as the norm/mainstream and others had to find alternatives if that wasn't for them rather than the other way round which is what we have now.[/quote]
Tbf I’m not convinced the opposite has been demonstrated.

We’re happy with the system as it is, dc included. Not due to work hours either. Although I’ve done sahm, freelance wohm etc so know many versions.

I’m also just not seeing unhappy reception dc and I’m wondering why you are seeing so many.

Comedycook · 20/09/2021 18:33

@sandcastles1

Comedycook - I only don't want to change it because I don't want to make her different, especially now we've started this journey. I think not doing what the others are makes it harder, but I may be wrong on that and I am talking in a generalisation as it will suit others. I simply think there is a debate to be had about whether the 'norm' and current 'mainstream' really is what suits children best. Yes my DC is settling - but I remain convinced that there would be benefits to more time at home - if that was what everyone was doing.
Most kids won't be at home having lovely walks in the woods, they will be stuck in childcare facilities which will be less educational than a school setting and more expensive for families. Lose, lose
Bobholll · 20/09/2021 18:34

My DD loves reception so far, just as she loved pre-school 4 days a week aged 3-4. It is by far in her best interests in my opinion. She is extremely sociable & far prefers days with her peers than us. She loves us, clearly but at the weekend she has always asked to go see friends & who is she playing with today. It’s fine, friendship is important to her and she finds her fun & entertainment in other children a tad more than mum & dad! She still loves days with us & cuddles & chats. All the lovely things we’ve always done. School hasn’t changed anything but then, she did longer hours in pre-school so schools actually given us some time back! She is also very keen on learning to read & write, she does it for fun at home constantly. She’s buzzing about school & it’s completely the right place for her. She turned 4 in May, so she’s a younger one.

Reception is 90% play based & a good school will have outdoor play available for a good chunk of the day. In theory, it should be all day but I know a lot of schools don’t do that. Ours do, which is nice. They also do forest school & once a week the kids are all outside toasting marshmallows on a campfire & learning about wildlife etc. It’s why we chose our school!

Every child is different. Because it’s not right for yours, doesn’t mean it’s not right for mine. If you don’t like the system, do something else. Other countries cited as not starting education til 7 have loadsa childcare & pre-school stuff. They don’t just stay at home 🤷🏼‍♀️

Bobholll · 20/09/2021 18:36

Also, you can ask for you DD to attend for half a day instead of a full day until the term after they are 5. I’m an ex-reception teacher & we had one or two kids do this from time to time! Parents usually sent them in the mornings & picked up at lunch.

SkinnyMirror · 20/09/2021 18:38

@sandcastles1

Comedycook - I only don't want to change it because I don't want to make her different, especially now we've started this journey. I think not doing what the others are makes it harder, but I may be wrong on that and I am talking in a generalisation as it will suit others. I simply think there is a debate to be had about whether the 'norm' and current 'mainstream' really is what suits children best. Yes my DC is settling - but I remain convinced that there would be benefits to more time at home - if that was what everyone was doing.
But that's unlikely to happen. Children will just be in expensive childcare.

Reducing school hours would significantly impact women's careers in a negative way. Just look what has happened over the last 18 months.

ichundich · 20/09/2021 18:41

[quote sandcastles1]@toomuchlaundry - I didn't say that parents weren't as good at me as answering questions etc, there was no qualitative content in my post - I said she had someone available to answer all the questions and not all children do for whatever reason.

As I put in a previous post - I've been in a lucky position in that I freelance so fit my working hours around my DC. I've done this predominantly by starting work very early before she wakes up and then working evenings and on the two days she's not been with me but with her dad. Now she's at school full time - my working life is a heck of a lot easier and more relaxed, but I remain unconvinced it's the best thing for her. I would like her to have a bit less time there, for her, that is all.[/quote]
I'm trying to understand what your problem is? She's not turning 5 until next summer, so doesn't have to be in school. You could easily take her out for a day or after 1 p.m. every day for example without her missing out too much on any "learning". What are you actually proposing as an altetnative?