Why do we send children to school so young

[sandcastles1]

Just that really - I'm feeling really disgruntled with our school system and why we make children go into full time education from the age of 4. My dc just started and is enjoying some of it and hating lots of it. She loved the first week when it was half days. For the past four years she has been either with me or her dad - we would take her out into the woods every day. Now she's cooped up in a small room/playground for the whole time. I could have home schooled her I know but didn't think that was the best thing socially. I can see the benefits of them going but 5 days a week 9-330 just seems harsh. Why couldn't it be three days. I know up until 5 we can take them out but just wondering how others feel as I'm missing my daughter a lot, she doesn't want to be there most of the time and I really now see the virtues of other countries that don't start full time until 7. Yes it means we can work, but why is that the norm? People that don't want to spend more time with their kids could find other care the rest of the time.

I think you are being particularly unreasonable. Just because your child isn’t ready for school doesn’t mean lots aren’t.

My daughter is 14 months and goes to an outdoor nursery three mornings a week, she undeniably loves it and is thriving. Putting aside your absolutely ridiculous statement that people who use childcare don’t want to spend time with their children, there are plenty of children that also thrive.

I could have kept her at home if I wanted but it has done so much for her development. Her vocabulary has increased exponentially since starting - new words this week include bubble, spider and squirrel. She has gone from this very shy lockdown baby to an outgoing toddler who chats away to adults, explores on her own and is learning all the time.

Your sweeping statements are frankly quite ridiculous. Keep her home if you want or send her to a private school that prioritises outdoor learning. Lobbying to not let other children do what suits them because your child isn’t ready is madness.

We are lucky in this country that we have the option to home educate if we don’t wish to send dc to school. I home ed my 3dc and we love it although I appreciate it is not for everyone. If you think your child might benefit then look into local home ed groups.

@sandcastles1

And just for the record for the people posting that I didn't prepare DC for school - it simply isn't true. I put her into summer camps to prep her as best I could beforehand and walked her to the school pretty much every day throughout the summer to look through the gates and talk about what would happen. We bought story books about starting school and read them together and she talked to my friend's older children about what would happen and what things they do. I couldn't put her into nursery because of Covid and a family member who has complicated health issues and was at very high risk of dying if they were to catch it. It wasn't an easy choice. She was in nursery a bit before Covid. She isn't actually struggling per se, she's doing quite well and better than others. She just is a bit different and I'm not enjoying it much either and it's what others are experiencing. I think it's an interesting debate worth having rather than just accepting what I feel is a system founded on capitalism - and not necessarily what is actually best pedagogically for the children. I can't change the system now, but this experience has changed my opinion and I'd like to see they system change in the future - which realistically I know it won't - and that's where the frustration lies.

It's odd that you think kids spending half the day in a formal setting is a "capitalist" thing. In most Eastern European (communist) countries it was normal for children to start nursery by 12 months and to spent the whole day (7 a.m. to 5 p.m.) there, whilst both their parents worked. In Germany formal schooling starts at 6 or 7, but nearly all children attend a "kita" (kindergarten), which is not very different from our KS1. Other posters have suggested you take your child out for 1 day each week; wouldn't that be a good compromise? Some primary schools are also "forest schools"; perhaps you could look into that.

Kindergarten is not similar to KS1 in all countries. I went to Kindergarten in Germany and it was playing and learning about the world, social skills etc. I started school at 7 and my classmates and I learned to read at that point and were able to read by Christmas. This is 30 years ago but Germans still don‘t start the 3Rs until their first year in school and kindergarten is not compulsory.

Personally I do think it is better for kids younger than 6 or 7 to have more freedom to play. My child is in a setting where he does do the 3Rs but is also free to go into the garden if he has the urge to move and run around etc. In the afternoon all kids of his age are outdoors just playing. So for me that was a happy medium available to my family now that I am in the UK.

@elbea. My DC also attends a similar type of nursery and I am very happy with it and they are thriving. But I don't think you can compare that to primary school. Nursery is not the same as school. A lot of state primary schools are stifling, sterile environments where the outdoor area for reception children is a concrete yard at most, where most learning is teacher-led and where children are expected to sit still for long periods of time. The opposite of forest nursery, in fact.

@Simonjt it's great your child is doing so well but mine is struggling. For most it's too early to do so much and have a weird mix of kind of doing ok with some sounds and small words, but not being able to actually read.......

I learned how to read and write at 6yo in 3months!!!! The rest of the class was reading and writing by maybe 6 months! That's the difference! 6 months vs 2/3 years. And that is much more satisfying for the children.

Besides my children love books! It's just that I do the reading and not them.

When my DC started reception, it was really obvious those who had been kept at home all day every day with parents rather than had some childminder/nursery exposure. You could quite easily say that those parents, despite good intentions, hadn’t effectively prepared their children for school esp with free childcare being available.

You have options to defer, home school or choose a school that emphasises play based learning and outdoor play, seems pretty common round here for outside lessons in early years.

Half days and part time classes would be a complete pain for working parents, we really struggled when they had half days during intro to reception and also last year in lockdown. Not sure what it achieves either.

Really interesting to hear about other countries doing activities in nursery setting that we do in school here, and makes a lot of sense when you hear about the great outcomes in those countries despite starting ‘school’ later!

Sorry OP but agree with PP who suggested you've not prepared your DC for school. Some kids love it, others don't. If you are against it and don't think it is best for your child then remove them and home school until such a time you think they should rejoin. Some children though really love it, really enjoy it and are really ready for it.

My DS hated the last 6 months of preschool and it was a real struggle, daily battles with me and his carers there because he needed more structure. He loves reception and would be so much worse off in a less formal setting

In scotland the youngest will be 4½ so they don't all start age 5. Both mine were 4 when they started P1

Age 5 within the school year, just as the English system is aged 4 within the school year and some are barely 4 when they start.

I put her into summer camps to prep her as best I could beforehand

And this wasn’t a risk to that highly vulnerable relative? The best “preparing for school camp” is the nursery that the government funds, and which also has the benefit of doing a whole load of transition work with the kids for primary school.

In Scandinavia the taxes are very high to pay for their reception / early years system, and a lot of women end up going back to work in this system, to look after someone else's child whilst their own goes to another school. It's not all the ideal system which some seem to think that it is.

Agreed. My best friend lives over there, her boy lacked maturity and was bored witless in the daycare he went to up to aged 7. She hated the fact he wasn’t in school. The pre-school class year he did aged 6-7 helped a little, but much of it was playing games and “free time” so lacked the structure he really thrived with when he went to school.

As someone else said, one size will never fit all, but if you’d rather romp in the woods with your 4 year old, choose to homeschool.

@ichundich

I grew up in the GDR and did not start Kindergarten until I was three and was picked up well before 5 pm. Then once I started school I was home much earlier that kids in the UK. My mum worked part time and once I was 8 or 9 my mum worked longer hours while we were home alone for a bit ( different times an completely normal). Though after school childcare was also available.

It was bit of a shock to the system that when we moved to another country school lasted till 3 pm.

You haven’t prepared her by keeping her at home instead of allowing her to attend preschool. This is on you. My four year old went to reception this year without any issues because she’d been prepared. This is especially important in eldest children as they haven’t got a sibling setting an example.

Ks1 is basically kindergarten. There’s not much difference.

For the first couple of years it’s basically just childcare so both parents can work. OP is very fortunate to be able to either stay at home or have DH at home every day. Most people have to work every day. We can’t decide national policy based on a fortunate minority who are wealthy enough not to have to work.

People who want an alternative to now are going to be the ones who have to come up with it and make it attractive to people. We can't make the changes unless there is support for it -- and I'm not sure that support is there.

Especially with COVID lockdown closures, I don't think we're going to get much push for fewer hours. Many schools I know are putting on trying to put on extras to try to counterbalance the skills and socializing that was lost. We might be able to get support for less objectives so kids and staff aren't doing as much and can focus on fewer things, I think the current overfilled list of to-dos contributes to how many children (and staff) are overwhelmed and worn out, but even that is difficult to get much traction. Politicians certainly don't want to be the one to say 'yeah, we overfilled the curriculum and it's a detriment' unless they're very sure they've got the backing for it.

A lot of state primary schools are stifling, sterile environments where the outdoor area for reception children is a concrete yard at most, where most learning is teacher-led and where children are expected to sit still for long periods of time.

A lot, eh? You have the numbers to back that up? Every school in our LA area is play based in infants, there are no desks. Sure, the outside area isn’t three acre woods, but they have outdoor learning classrooms, areas where they can do gardening, play outdoor games Even in inner cities, outdoor learning can be done effectively in a “concrete yard”

Here in my part of Spain they go in the September of the year they turn 3. So, if your chikld turns 3 in December this year, they are already at school. Admittedly it's not obligatory until 6 but everyone sends them so there is almost no nursery provision after 3.

Op how do you expeect school to adapt to all different working patterns and for how long , so class have 30 in one day as all want a monday , the next 10 are in the next 5 are in Etc , how does a teacher plan or work around that ?
We do have options

1. We don't have to actually send until 5
2. You can pay for private schools that may have a slightly different day etc

3 . You can home school all their life or until 7/8 or whatever age suits

So actually there are choices
Yes i think reception should be all play with not much empathise on reading / writing unless a child wants , as both my summer borns reading picked up around 5/ 6 just were not interested and didn't get it at 4 , although it was never a problem at school
And their school wasn't too pushy and they had a lot of outside play and had a lovely reception playground an lots of greenspace too

[quote grey12]@Simonjt it's great your child is doing so well but mine is struggling. For most it's too early to do so much and have a weird mix of kind of doing ok with some sounds and small words, but not being able to actually read.......

I learned how to read and write at 6yo in 3months!!!! The rest of the class was reading and writing by maybe 6 months! That's the difference! 6 months vs 2/3 years. And that is much more satisfying for the children.

Besides my children love books! It's just that I do the reading and not them.[/quote]
I’m more curious why you don’t want others to do it if a few aren’t ready, schooling should be flexible, it isn’t ethical to hold back children who are ready in certain areas. My son is poor at social skills, but I wouldn’t want join play, teamwork etc to be scrapped until he is ready.

You can’t wait for the slowest, just as you don’t go buy the quickest, it needs to be a flexi approach to cater for everyones PIES.

The more I think about, I’d be inclined to agree that your dd could have been better prepared for school. Books etc are all very well, but she needed more time away from you both. Although Covid has possibly made this a little more challenging. I also think that the problem seems to be you missing her and your routine rather than your dd genuinely being too young and not ready.

I don’t agree but dc have been happy to start learning

Re other countries you need to look at when dc typically start and how funding works as I noticed in country where sibling is it’s easier for parents to access full cheaper play nurseries than here.

[quote Buttercupleaf]@ichundich

I grew up in the GDR and did not start Kindergarten until I was three and was picked up well before 5 pm. Then once I started school I was home much earlier that kids in the UK. My mum worked part time and once I was 8 or 9 my mum worked longer hours while we were home alone for a bit ( different times an completely normal). Though after school childcare was also available.

It was bit of a shock to the system that when we moved to another country school lasted till 3 pm.[/quote]
Lucky you. Have you forgotten that school started at 7 a.m. in East German schools? So even though it finished at 12, that was 5 hours too, and having to get up at 6 every morning (including Saturdays!) is not something I consider "happy childhood memories". Neither were the super strict teachers who indoctrinated us at every opportunity, the complete lack of play equipment in the school grounds or the filthy toilets. Then when I got home it was another 3 or 4 hours before our parents came back from work. In comparison my children are having a wonderful time in their village school here in the UK.

*@BoredZelda I put her into summer camps to prep her as best I could beforehand

And this wasn’t a risk to that highly vulnerable relative? The best “preparing for school camp” is the nursery that the government funds, and which also has the benefit of doing a whole load of transition work with the kids for primary school.*
The vaccines made a difference and we changed things around so we didn't come into contact with the relative - which was an okay set up for a few weeks but wouldn't have worked for the 14 or so months. As I've said - pre covid DC was in nursery. It was a very very hard and very complex decision not to do nursery once covid took off. Probably wasn't right for DC - but for the family as a whole and keeping someone safe and alive, it was.

* You haven’t prepared her by keeping her at home instead of allowing her to attend preschool. This is on you.*

^Completely agree with this.

@sandcastles1

*Exactly. (your final paragraph) I'm in one of those countries and KS1 in the UK is almost exactly what ours do at nursery. I did some teacher training with primary teachers here and they were astonished that UK kids start so young, until we compared exactly what is done in schools at what age. A British 5 year old is doing exactly what our 5 year olds are doing, except ours do it in nursery.* Geamhradh - that's really interesting - what are the school hours for the different ages?

Nursery here is from 3yrs to 6yrs and if you go state, is about 20-25 hours a week.

We went to a private one because of work which was 8-4 and Saturday mornings because the kids ate there too.

The nursery system is much more akin to a "school" - everyone goes. The state ones also feed in to the primary which in turn feeds in to the Middle School. It's not obligatory to go to the primary attached to your nursery but most do. Before you had no choice and had to go to the nursery/primary/middle group nearest your home but you don't have to now.

School hours are 30 a week. 8-1 usually (but homework from the go get) if they go to a school which is also open on Saturday, otherwise till about 3.

Watching from Scotland I always think its mad that children go to school at 4.

I have a Scottish niece who is 4 and enjoying her second year at nursery whilst my English nephew who is 4 has just started school.

Both of mine were 5 when they started school.

I haven't kept DC at home away from people - she has been to nursery, summer camp, spent time in care with other people, been doing classes and playing with other children. Your assumptions here are wrong.