Why do we send children to school so young

[sandcastles1]

Just that really - I'm feeling really disgruntled with our school system and why we make children go into full time education from the age of 4. My dc just started and is enjoying some of it and hating lots of it. She loved the first week when it was half days. For the past four years she has been either with me or her dad - we would take her out into the woods every day. Now she's cooped up in a small room/playground for the whole time. I could have home schooled her I know but didn't think that was the best thing socially. I can see the benefits of them going but 5 days a week 9-330 just seems harsh. Why couldn't it be three days. I know up until 5 we can take them out but just wondering how others feel as I'm missing my daughter a lot, she doesn't want to be there most of the time and I really now see the virtues of other countries that don't start full time until 7. Yes it means we can work, but why is that the norm? People that don't want to spend more time with their kids could find other care the rest of the time.

@Coffeepants

No one is suggesting that. Personally I’d just like to be able to do more stuff with them like I did in the last 5 years, quick ice cream or hot chocolate dates, going to museums, the playground, having picnics, taking the tube, etc. we still do all these things but it now has to be condensed into a Saturday/Sunday. There’s not much room to just pop out for a little outing with them during the week.

Depends where you live I guess. We don't struggle with this.

What do you think about the fact that work places are reducing to 4 day weeks keeping salaries the same recognising that people work smarter that way - do you think 4 year olds might benefit from that too?

Hahaha really? I don't know of any workplace or sector that is making serious moves towards this.

Maybe schools could do the 'core learning' in the morning, put the stuff like pe, music, art etc in the afternoon and make afternoons optional.

I think there is some talk about Scotland moving towards a four day week. Not sure if it will come to fruition though.

I think you are coming from a place of privilege if you can survive on one salary from a three day a week job, @sandcastles1

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

Maybe schools could do the 'core learning' in the morning, put the stuff like pe, music, art etc in the afternoon and make afternoons optional.

But then some children won't get access to music, art, PE etc which is potentially very detrimental.

My secondary school in Scotland now does 4 longer days (8.55- 3.45) and a shorter day on a Friday (8.55 -12.30). There are optional activities you can stay for on Friday afternoon

Afternoons are already optional because school is optional. What currently isn’t available as an option is school as and when you feel like it, which is fair enough I think.

I'm surprised people don't want to be just that little bit more involved

How unbelievably patronising.

Actually no, people want to be right. Their way is the only way. I have apologized if I offended anyone. At no point have I said hey you don’t love your kid.

Simply pointing out my observations and responding to everyone who thinks my opinion is not valid because it’s not popular.

@Coffeepants

Your opinion is valid. As is anyone's

However you tone is rude and condescending, judgemental and unpleasant.

No one minds your opinion. We mind your nastiness.

At no point have I said hey you don’t love your kid.

You have very heavily implied that multiple times.

Alright then. Guess I’m the only rude one. Must be all those years of formal schooling since I was a tiny kid!

Many of the reports about 4 day work weeks have been exaggerated as the reduction in hours was far less than suggested as the days were lengthened.

Some people already work 4 day work weeks, 4 on/3-4 off is not uncommon in some lines of work, in other professions it would be more than a struggle. We have some severe skill shortages in the UK and that's before getting into the shift work and gig economy that often makes it possible for many of us to work from home as we do.

Maybe eventually there will be a shift that could change work and education patterns significantly. Shifts take a lot of effort and support with a pinch of the right circumstances. Getting support takes more than just offering plans.

That's the thing - most of us can recognize our current systems have flaws and a lot of unneeded things, but whatever we come up with will also have flaws and unneeded things & many are cautious about making a major shift that could have more unintended consequences than we have now. The whole 'Devil you know' way of considering known risks vs unknown ones.

I mean, I went to school half days for my entire kindergarten year, I was 4 when I started. The rest of my time wasn't adventures, it was largely spent watching my mother's soap operas, helping tidy my grandparents' house or wandering around by myself. That was normal. No one expected parents to take their kids on adventures regularly back then. That had benefits and risks and there are some to the models being suggested.

She is finding it easier each day to go in and is one of the most social there.

Your descriptions sound similar to me DD2 when she began school at 11. The adjustment takes time and for some children it will always be a wobble. We still, over a year on, have a 'and what percentage are you on?' chat. It's never been 100%, but it's never been below 70% either.

Thing is, most kids don't get a choice and most parents don't have many options either - not with keeping food on the table. When people are already doing the best with what they've got, telling them they should want to do just that little bit more is a good way to lose support.

I'm surprised people don't want to be just that little bit more involved

People get involved in different ways when their kids go to school. Some read over the curriculum on the website so they can get resources, some get into the parent governor role, some arrange large donations for the school library, and so on - there are many ways to be involved that doesn't actually involve us being physically present with our child.

The same way everyone on this thread has straight up told me I should homeschool, etc? For simply agreeing that school going age in this country is too young.

@Coffeepants

The same way everyone on this thread has straight up told me I should homeschool, etc? For simply agreeing that school going age in this country is too young.

You have stated you think it is too young. I don’t and have, as DT’s are now 22, seen the benefits of their education system. We were heavily involved in each step (inappropriate comment from that poster!). Hours spent checking our nurseries and visiting so many schools to find the right one which would cater best for what we wanted for our DC’s. Years spent paying school fees and organising high quality after school clubs and activities. Thankfully it all worked well and DT’s have left Uni with 1st and have now started work - one for the EU in Brussels and the other an engineering company in the Netherlands

Are you suggesting had your children started a year later they would have gone on to achieve less? Why would we pressure 4 year olds into reading and writing, 5 year olds into spelling tests? Is there any evidence that starting earlier has better outcomes?

On the contrary, research shows that a later start to formal learning is more beneficial and up to age 7 learning should be primarily through play.

@Coffeepants

The same way everyone on this thread has straight up told me I should homeschool, etc? For simply agreeing that school going age in this country is too young.

You haven't 'simply' agreed the school age is too young. You have taken every opportunity to patronise and pass judgement on parents who are content with the current set up of sending children to school at the current age. You have insinuated that women who need to work for money or want to progress their careers can't possibly love their children or want the best for them and you have made digs at women who enjoy having a little time to themselves after dropping their children to school.

I pity your child for having such a nasty judgemental mother that thinks she is clearly better than everyone else

@Coffeepants

Are you suggesting had your children started a year later they would have gone on to achieve less? Why would we pressure 4 year olds into reading and writing, 5 year olds into spelling tests? Is there any evidence that starting earlier has better outcomes?

On the contrary, research shows that a later start to formal learning is more beneficial and up to age 7 learning should be primarily through play.

If they had started school later, they would have spent longer in nursery. They had outgrown nursery activities and were ready for reading and writing in a more formal setting.

Well guess we are level on the insults then. Thanks for your pity! Guess me wanting the best for my kids even if it goes against the grain, wanting more time with them and oh god forbid, suggesting that actually they are the most important thing in my life, far more important than any job or money, makes me a terrible parent

@Coffeepants You wouldn't have the luxury to say that them being with you for a couple more years of ice creams and hot chocolates was more important than your job and money if you actually needed those things to keep a roof over their heads. And if you did, your priorities would be very questionable.

@Coffeepants

Well guess we are level on the insults then. Thanks for your pity! Guess me wanting the best for my kids even if it goes against the grain, wanting more time with them and oh god forbid, suggesting that actually they are the most important thing in my life, far more important than any job or money, makes me a terrible parent

Almost everyone wants the best for their kids and considers them the most important thing in their life - I would take a bet and say every single person on this thread does. However we all have different circumstances, opinions and priorities. It is very possible for what you want to go against the grain and spend more time with them without making snide remarks against those who simply don't agree with you or need to work for a living to keep a roof over their head and food on the table.

As many have said time and time again, you can take your child out and homeschool them if you want them at home with you, you can go find a private school with a different style of education, you can move to one of the countries that are supposedly so much better than here... the list of possibilities is endless. Just absolutely no need to insult others and their parenting in the process of expressing your dissatisfaction

A terrible parent, you are not by any standard however I am very very glad I do not know you in real life - certainly not the kind of person I would want to waste a second of my time with. Sadly that awful attitude will rub off on your child if you voice similar things around them

I am lucky yes, but I’ve also actively taken a smaller mortgage than I could afford, chosen to not spend money on gadgets, cars, etc. tend to live well under my means and have always done so even when I earned a lot less. So while I am privileged, I’ve also consciously made decisions over the last 20 years that will allow me to choose to have more time with my children.

I would love to see a more relaxed primary education, with formal learning starting at 7.
That’s not to say children aren’t learning before that age because a decent educator can use play based learning to cover a huge variety of topics and stretch children who need that.

My children are home educated and play is a huge part of their day.

But, @Coffeepants, there is a judgement in that statement too, which I’m surprised you can’t see. And yes, there will be some people who have to work because of eating and shelter, but there will be plenty more like me who work because of taking a long term view, which I think is sensible.

Sue me: I don’t want to spend life scrimping and scraping for every penny, having to lug picnic baskets and flasks on days out because can’t afford a coffee, considering a once a year haircut the height of luxury, constantly having to question whether or not I can afford this or that. Longer term, I want to be able to provide for my child at university and beyond, not live my retirement in poverty and pay for private school if needed.

Sometimes you have to make decisions based on what is best for the entirety of a child’s life and not the brief period under the age of five.

Wholeheartedly agree, it comes down to individual circumstances. But if you’re working with a long term view, so you not see any benefit to working less (If possible) and having more time in the primary years?