Primary school offered place at C of E school

[Emma2021]

Morning

Our grandson who will be about 4yrs 6 months old in Sept 2021 has been offered a place at a C 0f E school. Presently he goes to a nursery within the London borough they live in but there are 10 others on the waiting list for that school so he has been offered this c of e school.

Two reasons why his parents inc us do not want him to go there. First is religion as we are not C 0f E and no disrespect to anyone and secondly he is used to the nursery and that is a non Cof E school.

We have noted that several of the ladies that take their children to the c of e school are quite vocal re relgion and 'born again' etc.

We are not ultra relgious, ie all of us but we do not want a C of E school or any other reglios school inc our own faith but a standard school ie one that does not inc name of a relgion/etc.

I do not mean cause offence to anyone and we are relatively open minded but I've met born again and other types of relg people that bang on about religon and we don't.

Many thanks,

Ok, to address a few points:
I think that any organisation should be able to set up a private school on their land/using their buildings (obviously subject to the appropriate checks etc).

As the overwhelming majority of funding comes from the State then, no, I don't think faith schools should be able to prioritise. If they want to fund their establishments 100 per cent then fine.

As I have said, I have been head of RS/RE in a variety of schools over a 15 year career so I am very aware of what schools are like.

As for our area, we don't have three schools to choose from. We have one.
It is not appropriate for my son's needs. This is not just my view, his paediatrician agrees. In her words this country is "bankrupt" and he simply wouldn't get what he needs.
As I said, luckily we are sending our children to private school so we won't have to engage.

Although I don't agree with everything he says, the Richard Dawkins documentary "Faith School Menace" is really good.

Similar to @Liverbird77, we had 3 schools locally which DS might feasibly have got a place in on distance - 2 CofE and 1 community. All of them good schools on paper. But the point is that children are all individuals, and all schools have their own atmosphere, so a good fit for one child won't work at all well for another. If non-religious parents have to rule out church schools, then all too often we get left with Hobson's choice, regardless of the goodness of fit (or not) for our child - or worst case, no local school at all. I don't think that's OK, when it's all state funded education.
Private wasn't an option for us.
On paper it should make no difference. They all (though I disagree with it) have to hold daily Christian collective worship. They are all supposed to teach the same locally agreed RE syllabus. The CofE schools don't actively evangelise and they say they're there for all faiths and none.
Then your child gets there and it's all "we want to offer all children an encounter with the living Christ during their time at school"....we "challenge" those of no faith.. and they bang on about "our Christian school" and "our Christian values" and "our Christian faith" with every other breath. My son feels awkward and different, in a negative way, as an atheist. (He is, btw, firmly atheist now in reaction to the horrors of his first Easter at school - they made an atheist there, far more efficiently than I ever could have IF I'd been trying, which I wasn't because I wanted him to pick his own path for himself.) But he shouldn't have to feel awkward and different at school because of religion. I also find the "Christian values" racket in education borderline insulting - the CofE have spun a narrative that they "do" values and pastoral care better than community schools and better than people of no religion, because it comes from their faith.

Then you should have sent him to the community school, Ceara
You presumably made the choice.

Sometimes the children of atheists are offered places in these schools, @GreyhoundG1rl
There really isn't a choice.

Anyway, the point still stands. Why are we paying any taxes at all towards establishments that teach that someone came back from the dead and that we can have a relationship with a sky fairy? It's absolutely nuts.

The right to withdraw doesn't even keep them safe. In one of our local schools, reference was made in a science lesson to God creating the world!

Clearly other people are also uncomfortable with their children being exposed to this rubbish.

What other state funded institutions would people be happy to see forced religion or religious discrimination in?

In one of our local schools, reference was made in a science lesson to God creating the world!

What happened when you challenged it?

And what was the context? I.e was it a response to a question eg. Yes, some people believe God made the world, but in science we learn these facts….. or was it a renegade teacher changing the curriculum to suit their creationist views?

@GreyhoundG1rl yes, I made the choice. As it goes, we wouldn't have got into the community school anyway, that year, but yes I put it further down my list because there are many factors to weigh when picking a school. My son at 4 was not going to cope well with a buzzy open plan 3 form entry primary with 90 kids in a free flow area for Year R, where he knew nobody, and was visibly terrified and crying at the open day. As opposed to the cost little village school his two best friends were going to, that we walked past most days on the way to preschool, and went into happily ag open day and started playing with the toys. Why on earth should he have to have coped with the school he'd hate, instead of the state funded village school , just because he's not Christian?
I did inform myself before filling the form in, by reading the CofE blurb and policies, which said very clearly that their schools are for the whole community, all religions and none, and are not faith schools. I was reassured that these aren't denominational schools. And everyone and his dog tells you not to worry about it because it's all very light touch blah blah. Which I think CofE schools probably mostly were up until about 8-10 years ago, ie in recent memory if you had kids going through primary then who are now at uni. When we applied the school even still had "school values", not the "our Christian values" they've now rebranded them as, to fall in with the Diocese and SIAMS diktats.
It's sneaky two-faced misselling.
The church runs 25% of primary schools - over 50% where I live - and it should live up to its rhetoric about its schools being inclusive and for all. I consider it the CofE's bad that they're taking my taxes and not delivering what they say they will - not mine, for having the temerity as an atheist to send my child to the local school with his mates.

*cosy

@Poppitt58 my son isn't there. I heard from a friend whose child was in the class.
As I said upthread, we won't be sending our children there because their moral framework and belief system do not fit with ours.

In that case, you probably need the context before you suggest CE schools might teach creationist views in science lessons. Not typical of CE schools (due to the fact it’s not allowed)

I find it strange that you weren’t aware it was unusual, given your theological background and teaching experience.

And sorry, I thought you were talking about a local secondary. I hadn’t realised it was one of your local CE primary schools.

Hopefully you don’t talk about ‘rubbish’ and ‘sky fairies’ when you teach RS. As a teacher, respecting children and their families is pretty high on my agenda, so ridiculing them for their faith or religious background isn’t something I believe teachers should do. Teachers are entitled to personal opinions, but for someone who clearly hates religion, teaching RS is a bit odd.

@Poppitt58 well, thanks for your opinion. I am really well qualified and used to get excellent results, particularly at A Level.
I don't teach any longer, but I do work for an exam board, marking A Level Philosophy and doing other bits and bobs.

I do have the context. It was about the Earth being created by God. It was completely contrary to what I'd want my own children to be taught.

Of course I didn't bring my own views into the classroom. The A Level syllabus does include a huge range of views, including hard and soft atheism, so I don't think it's odd at all. I have never, ever ridiculed a child. In fact, my classroom was a fucking refuge for many kids who were bullied/troubled/underestimated.
Also, why do you say I "hate religion"? I find it fascinating. I am certainly not a Christian, nor do I support Christian values. Why is that's so strange?

I also teach Classics and one of my areas of interest is the history of the Early Church.
I read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation at the age of 12. I have always absolutely loved the subject.
I did teach my students that opinions were not inherently deserving of respect, and that anything that is true would stand up to scrutiny. That goes for theism, atheism and agnosticism.

*that

C of E schools are pretty easy going in my experience which many children of various faiths and non-religious parents. You can opt out of religious events/assemblies of you feel strongly about it. Have you visited the school to get a feel for it and have a conversation with them about it?

If it's a good school I'd send him.

My daughter goes to a C of E school, normally they do a nativity at Christmas and ask people to bring in food for the food bank at harvest festival time, and that's about it. We are not religious but happy for her to learn about it.

Most schools have some kind of religious affiliation and it would be a shame to limit your school choices based on this.

Also, why do you say I "hate religion"?

Mostly the deliberately goady comments about sky fairies.

@Poppitt58 not goady, just my opinion.

You’re entitled to your opinion but I think you were goading. In the same way you know that creationist views are not on the science curriculum, nor are they taught as standard in CE schools, but you chucked that in for good measure too.

Some people are happy to say ‘I disagree with your beliefs’ but others talk about sky fairies, like they’re somehow above anyone who doesn’t have the same beliefs as them.

Well said @Poppitt58

I never understand why posters on MN are allowed to be so offensive and goady towards religion and just get away with it time and time again.

The fact that such offensive use of language comes from someone who is an RE teacher is quite shocking.

@BackForGood @Poppitt58 we can all say what we wish because we have freedom of thought and freedom of speech.
I would find it offensive if my child was told what I consider to be lies under the guise of faith!
I find many Church teachings on morality to be offensive.

As for the "creationism", it wasn't someone banging on about six day creation, more of a "God made such a beautiful world". Again, not something I want my child to experience.

I am no longer teaching. As I said, very clearly, I did not bring my personal views into the classroom. It was all done very dispassionately.
I can't understand, however, why it would be ok for an RS/RE teacher to be a staunch Christian but not an atheist? Teachers are not there to indoctrinate their students.

I don't think, as an atheist, that it's helpful to use dismissive language like sky fairies. Disagree, but do it respectfully, as we'd want to be treated, and "live and let live" as long as they're doing no harm.
On the other hand - non-belief is a protected characteristic too with equal status under the law and entitlement to respect. But religious people are defended when they evangelise in our schools (sorry, offer "invitational" compulsory worship), state-funded schools can have as their published RE policy (RE - not collective worship, RE) that they will challenge non-belief, little children can be traumatised and given screaming nightmares by their first "encounter" with torture, capital punishment and Christian belief in the resurrection, non-Christian teachers and school leaders can be told they are inherently less good at understanding values of common decency or providing a nurturing school environment - and if atheists call that out, however politely, we are jumped on and told we shouldn't send our kids to those schools as the Christians have every right to exist and practice their faith and we must be trying to threaten that with our nasty atheist objections. (Or alternatively, we are reassured it's not really a faith school until our kids have started and made friends...or we are allocated a place at one, like it or not, like the OP...and then later we're jumped on and told we shouldn't choose those schools etc etc. Which our taxes pay for. And which say they serve the whole community.)

Creation is an interesting one. I am surprised to hear of it being advanced in a science lesson at a mainstream CofE school. However, it's certainly taught at my son's school in other contexts. It's a core theme of the CofE's spiral RE curriculum which they use in place of the locally agreed syllabus for the 2/3 of RE time allocated to the study of Christianity: the theme "Creation: Christians believe the universe and human life are God’s good creation and humans are made in the image of God" gets a half term block every single year. In RE they mostly remember to say "Christians believe that..." but in collective worship on the same theme, belief by all present is assumed and encouraged, by definition or the integrity of their act of worship would be compromised (sic). They don't do evolution in school science until Year 6; the big bang waits until KS3. So I'd say creationism gets a 6 year clear run.

I'm not sure any of this is helping the OP. The bottom line is that there is no right in this country to attend a secular school, and no such thing anyway as they are all mandated to hold daily Christian collective worship. And "choice" in school applications is a misnomer, all you can do is list preferences, which you may not get. So the OP's grandson can go to the state funded school where he's been allocated a place and where all local children are equally entitled to a place regardless of religion. Or they home ed and put him on waiting lists for preferred schools. Or go private. Not wanting a faith school is not a recognised ground to appeal the allocation of a CofE school place.

I absolutely didn’t say a staunch Atheist couldn’t teach RS. I have no issue with Atheism or with my children hearing Atheist views at school, or views from other religions.

They live in a diverse community, and are going to hear and experience a range of view points. When those view points are not offensive, I’d expect them to be respectful.

I don’t know you in real life. I have your posts to go on, and these views;
teach that someone came back from the dead and that we can have a relationship with a sky fairy? It's absolutely nuts.
Clearly other people are also uncomfortable with their children being exposed to this rubbish.

Suggest that you think people of faith are stupid, and that other people’s faiths are rubbish.

I struggle to understand why you would want to lead a balanced debate in RS with children from a multi faith community. When you seem to think some of your pupils and their families are idiots.

I’m aware I don’t have the same beliefs as many of my students, but I can wholeheartedly say I have respect for them.

I respect people's right to hold belief but I don't have to respect those beliefs.
I was happy for people to express whatever they want, as long as they were able to answer exam questions. I really couldn't care less what people think. I've taught Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, many Christian denominations etc etc.
As I've said, I am no longer teaching, so it really isn't an issue.
My problem was with my children being exposed to Christian doctrine and morality if they were forced to attend a faith school. These things are presented as fact, not as "some people believe" etc.
Studies have shown that small children attribute purpose to things. It would be easy to convince them that God created the world etc etc. I think it is absolutely outrageous.

Sorry for any typos etc, I am in a rush this morning!

I don’t really understand what you’re looking for here OP.
1 - not your child. It really is down to his parents to sort this out.
2 - appeals process is presumably finished?
3 - you’re seriously objecting to a school due to its name?!