Primary school offered place at C of E school

[Emma2021]

Morning

Our grandson who will be about 4yrs 6 months old in Sept 2021 has been offered a place at a C 0f E school. Presently he goes to a nursery within the London borough they live in but there are 10 others on the waiting list for that school so he has been offered this c of e school.

Two reasons why his parents inc us do not want him to go there. First is religion as we are not C 0f E and no disrespect to anyone and secondly he is used to the nursery and that is a non Cof E school.

We have noted that several of the ladies that take their children to the c of e school are quite vocal re relgion and 'born again' etc.

We are not ultra relgious, ie all of us but we do not want a C of E school or any other reglios school inc our own faith but a standard school ie one that does not inc name of a relgion/etc.

I do not mean cause offence to anyone and we are relatively open minded but I've met born again and other types of relg people that bang on about religon and we don't.

Many thanks,

I'm as atheist as they come but the village school is church of england. It was fine. Think they had a carol concert once a year and a nativity play and a harvest festival and that was it. I also went to a CofE primary and any religious stuff went over my head.

All the local education authority have to do I believe is to offer a place at a school. They have fulfilled their obligation. You can appeal for a place at a different school but not wanting this school for religious reasons won't be taken into account. Unless people drop out you're unlikely to get a place at a full up primary as they are very strict about numbers. They will have an admissions criteria and work their way down the list when allocating any further places, so looked after kids, special needs, siblings, distance.

Some London boroughs are very over subscribed. You can of course decline the offered school but they are under no obligation to offer another one (and probably won't) so your GS would then have to be home schooled. Is that an option?

I'm not quite sure what your question is, OP, but if you're just making a statement that you don't think your DGC should have to go to a religious school (especially when not your religion) then I agree with you. Not much you or the parents can do unfortunately.

It's shocking the stranglehold the CofE has over education in some parts of this country. Three out of four of our nearest primary schools are CofE and the fourth one is heavily oversubscribed. It's a complete racket... parents attend church to prevent their DC being sent to the less popular schools on the other side of the borough as catchments are tiny. And actually the CofE schools are quite religious and the tone is quite fervent. Completely inappropriate to have this in state education, in my view. We're going to either move or go private (we're lucky that this is an option) as this is not what we want for our DC. So if that's your point, I agree.

It's shocking the stranglehold the CofE has over education in some parts of this country.

And the Catholic Church.

@SoupDragon. Also that! The next nearest primary school to us is a Catholic one. Then another CofE one ! So 4 CofE, one 'secular' (though oversubscribed and still has collective worship) and one Catholic. And people talk about choice!

I’m also not sure what your question is? Do you have the right to turn down the school based on your religious preferences and demand to be placed in your school of choice? Well I’m not sure. You can certainly go on the waiting list of your preferred school and see if a place comes up down the line. I’d also ring around other local primaries and see if they had any places.

My children go to a CofE school and we are agnostic. Some of the stuff they come back and talk about does irritate me abd I can’t help but give a different viewpoint and talk about the science viewpoint instead. However they receive an excellent education there and I’m grateful they have a place.

Could you clarify a couple of things, which might help people to advise

1. did your child list this school as an option on the form
2. is your grandson on the waiting list for any other schools and if so where on the list
3. do they have the realistic option of private instead?

I haven't read the full thread. However, the basics...

Do not reject the place that has been offered unless you are prepared to home educate. The LA has fulfilled its legal duty by coming up with an offer. They are not obliged to come up with an alternative if you reject it.

Bottom line, we live and let live as long as it's within the law but we have a right to choice within the law

I'm afraid that is not correct. You have the right to express a preference and the LA must accommodate your preference if possible. However, if your grandson did not qualify for a place at any of the preferences based on their admission criteria, the LA can offer you a place at any school that has a place available. It will usually be the nearest school to home.

Your options are:

• appeal for the schools you want. However, most Reception appeals are heard under infant class size rules which means it is very difficult to win unless you can show that a mistake was made which deprived your grandson of a place

• see if there are places available at any local schools you would be happy with

• defer entry until Christmas and hope a place comes up at one of your preferred schools

• send your grandson to an independent school

I can't immediately think of any other options. Sorry.

Where we live there are three primary schools: RC, C of E and non-faith.

Both the RC and the CofE give preference to children whose parents have attended church for a set number of weeks. The RC school favours baptised RC children from specific parishes.
The non-faith school is absolutely huge and, in my opinion, not great.

I think we will have to send our children to private school outside of the area.
The non-faith school just isn't good enough and, even if we got a place, I don't want them being exposed to what I consider to be the utter crap being peddled at these religious schools.
I've heard, and overheard, enough examples to really set off the alarm bells. Lots of guff about God creating the world, lots of time at Easter devoted to RE etc.

We are not a Christian family and we don't agree with many so-called "Christian values". It is outrageous that any public money is spent on funding these schools. It is insane that a child's education depends on the beliefs of its parents. All children are born atheists!

I am very sorry for the OP.

But what's your beef, exactly Liverbird? The non faith school is huge, so no issues getting a place, but it's not as good as the faith schools??
Why would you argue against faith schools based on this?

What absolute nonsense!

Historically the churches set up a lot of schools for the poor of the parish. The landed gentry sent their children to private schools.

While there are understandable issues with approaches of some faith origin schools for some families, it's a national government approach needed to make it equitable, not blaming churches for historically having provided education for the masses.

Actually, all three schools are OFSTED outstanding, although I think we all know that's not always an accurate picture.
My "beef" is that there is no choice in state education for us. A five form entry primary school is just not appropriate for my son's needs. As the other two are faith schools, we don't have any choice.

As a former RE teacher, and current A Level examiner, I do have a good understanding of the historical background. I just don't think it is right that in this day and age any of our taxes should go towards funding schools that exclude children on the basis of their parents' faith.

@GreyhoundG1rl I think you've misunderstood what I am saying. My first objection is that there is no choice of state primary school in my area. Rather than my taxes paying towards the running of two faith schools, I'd rather there were three secular primaries from which to choose.
All three are actually over-subscribed.

My second objection is that I despise Christianity and the thought of them having to go to one of these places, which are closely connected with local churches and religious leaders, turns my stomach. I am glad we have the option of private school.

While there are understandable issues with approaches of some faith origin schools for some families, it's a national government approach needed to make it equitable, not blaming churches for historically having provided education for the masses.

These schools are taxpayer-funded. Regardless of the religious element to their teaching, it's unacceptable for admissions to be determined by parents' compliance with religious criteria. If they want to discriminate, churchgoers should pay to fund faith schools not taxpayers.

Why should I as a taxpayer have less choice for my children to attend taxpayer-funded schools simply because I don't go to church? Either open up admissions or de-fund them.

Our local village school is CofE. It takes children from the area, no preference for faith families. Looked after children, then children with an EHCP, then siblings from catchment, then catchment then outside by crow flies. No other criteria.

I went to a CofE school. Father was Muslim and I am an atheist. Really loved all the singing at school though. If it's a good school I wouldn't rule it out just on having a religion in the title. Surely a good primary education is more important? 🤷‍♀️

@Jellybabiesforbreakfast

While there are understandable issues with approaches of some faith origin schools for some families, it's a national government approach needed to make it equitable, not blaming churches for historically having provided education for the masses.

These schools are taxpayer-funded. Regardless of the religious element to their teaching, it's unacceptable for admissions to be determined by parents' compliance with religious criteria. If they want to discriminate, churchgoers should pay to fund faith schools not taxpayers.

Why should I as a taxpayer have less choice for my children to attend taxpayer-funded schools simply because I don't go to church? Either open up admissions or de-fund them.

Increasingly, CofE schools reserve a proportion of places to be awarded on non-faith grounds.

If you completely removed the ability of faith schools to prioritise on faith grounds I would expect all RC schools, some CofE schools and some schools of minority faiths to close. That would leave around 1 million children without schools. The cost to the taxpayer would be huge.

@prh47bridge. But at least then we would have universal, state-funded education with no discrimination on the grounds of faith.

Around here, if you don't go to church or live within 100 metres of the school, you can't access 3 out of 4 of our local primary schools. It's a complete scandal.

There's church schools and church schools tbh. Some are very churchy, others much less so. I think it depends how close their tie to the diocese is. Some are C of E controlled, others more affiliated.

My DS goes to a church school and the pastoral system and values the school practices are outstanding. It's Christianity with a small c. But very big on love, compassion, kindness, understanding etc. He's thriving there. We are not a religious family at all, but we are very happy to keep him there because the school is SUCH a caring place.

Probably worth researching the school in more detail and getting a feel for how churchy it is....

GreyhoundG1rl I think you've misunderstood what I am saying. My first objection is that there is no choice of state primary school in my area. Rather than my taxes paying towards the running of two faith schools, I'd rather there were three secular primaries from which to choose.
All three are actually over-subscribed.
I got what you're saying. But given that the two faith schools are also over subscribed, the area is clearly catered for quite adequately.
Why do you imagine these people should have their choice of school removed so that you can have a choice of three of your preferred type?
On the funding thing; most Catholic schools are voluntary aided.

@Emma2021 For historical reasons the vast majority of infant and primary schools in this country are religiously affiliated.

Your GS parents are likely to face serious problems if they reject any school with a nominal religious affiliation.

[quote Emma2021]@Soontobe60

How is your point relevant to my question?[/quote]
The point they were making is that there will be lots of children from different religions especially in London.
Why were they offered a school that they had not applied for? Did they apply for schools that they were out of catchment for or did they apply for this school?

I would send him to the school and keep him on the waiting list of the school you want. He/they may settle into the school and the issues you foresee may not exist.

My DC goes to a C of E school, we moved into the area and so took what we could and the school is far more mixed in terms of wealth/religion/ ethnicity/ cultural background etc than the school he previously attended.

@GreyhoundG1rl you know VA means that 90 per cent of funding comes from the State, right?

The area isn't catered for adequately at all. As I said, the non-faith school is huge and not suitable for my child. The faith schools peddle their Bronze Age nonsense. There is no choice.

Every week the local CofE churches are filled with parents who are clearly only there to get a reference from the Vicar. Why should a faith reference be required to get a place in a school funded by our tax pounds? Why should a parent's attendance at church give their child the right to a place in a school?

I have absolutely no issue with private schools of a religious character, although I feel sorry for the children getting that stuff foisted upon them.

you know VA means that 90 per cent of funding comes from the State, right?

To be pedantic, 90% of funding for capital works comes from the state. In theory the state provides 100% of the funding for running costs but in practice at least some VA schools top up the funding.

Why should a faith reference be required to get a place in a school funded by our tax pounds?

To play devil's advocate, why should the trust that owns the land and buildings be prohibited from prioritising children from families of the faith? Don't they get any say in the running of their school?

Many, possibly most, CofE schools now reserve a proportion of places (up to 50% in many cases) for non-faith applicants, so people who don't go to church have a decent chance of getting a place.

And, being practical, if we stop faith schools prioritising on faith grounds, it is likely that we will have to build schools to accommodate around 1 million pupils who previously went to faith schools (predominantly RC schools). The cost both financially and politically for the government would be huge.

although I feel sorry for the children getting that stuff foisted upon them.

Many faith schools are no more religious than the average community school. Indeed, some community schools are considerably more religious than some faith schools.

In any event, this is not helping the OP. Her problem is not trying to get her grandchildren into a faith school. Her problem is that they have been admitted to a faith school which she doesn't want.

Actually, all three schools are OFSTED outstanding

You have 3 outstanding state schools to choose from, and that’s not enough?

Where I live, we have 1 school in catchment.

A five form entry primary school is just not appropriate for my son's needs.

Why? They’ll have the same ratios as any other school.

@dryersheep

Historically the churches set up a lot of schools for the poor of the parish. The landed gentry sent their children to private schools.

While there are understandable issues with approaches of some faith origin schools for some families, it's a national government approach needed to make it equitable, not blaming churches for historically having provided education for the masses.

Historically it was non conformist churches setting up schools, often in urban newly industrialised areas, that galvanised the government of the time to establish state education, mostly because the powers that be realised that what they didn’t want was an educated underclass which was non conformist. They didn’t want to do it and it was very hard to get the legislation through parliament, much of the opposition disgracefully led by industrialists who didn’t want to lose access to a cheap young workforce . The history of education in the UK is a very interesting mix of religious intolerance and class discrimination . Much as it still is , now I come to think of it.