Primary school offered place at C of E school

[Emma2021]

Morning

Our grandson who will be about 4yrs 6 months old in Sept 2021 has been offered a place at a C 0f E school. Presently he goes to a nursery within the London borough they live in but there are 10 others on the waiting list for that school so he has been offered this c of e school.

Two reasons why his parents inc us do not want him to go there. First is religion as we are not C 0f E and no disrespect to anyone and secondly he is used to the nursery and that is a non Cof E school.

We have noted that several of the ladies that take their children to the c of e school are quite vocal re relgion and 'born again' etc.

We are not ultra relgious, ie all of us but we do not want a C of E school or any other reglios school inc our own faith but a standard school ie one that does not inc name of a relgion/etc.

I do not mean cause offence to anyone and we are relatively open minded but I've met born again and other types of relg people that bang on about religon and we don't.

Many thanks,

@Yellowmellow2
Thank you again.
Some of the comments here and unnecessary but Ijudging by other threads some just want to have a go rather than help.
Many have been helpful/etc but quiet a few as just not called for.

To answer a few points raised.

Yes, it is up to our dear GS's parents but they are like minded and seek our guidance as we do theirs as we are a close family, thanks.

For sure, as stated by me we have no problem with assembies etc but i am aware some catholic children do not attend them, their choice as is the schools.

I'm sure the c of e school won't preach the religion to our GS 24/7 but we do not want him to go three. We were not aware there was a C 0f E school near us therefore did not mention of app form.

To reiterate, we would not send our GS to a school that practices our relgion and we believe in God.

A poster that said we may get the placing at the school for our dear GS as people change their minds or decide for another school, thanks for that.

Bottom line, we live and let live as long as it's within the law but we have a right to choice within the law. At work I know of people that would never go to another religions place of worship, we would as we would as in our judgement they won't convert us. However, we do not want our GS going to a school with a mention of ANY region in the school name that is who we are and what we want as we do steer clear of politics and religion.

Many thanks to all that sincerely tried to help/recommend.

CofE schools really aren’t very religious at all - they certainly aren’t evangelical!

How many schools did your GS apply for? I’m surprised they didn’t get one of the six options they had the chance to put on their application form which presumably weren’t church schools.

As for the name - that’s just the name of the school.

Bottom line, we live and let live as long as it's within the law but we have a right to choice within the law.

I'm afraid that isn't true. You have a right to express a preference by law - you do NOT have a right to choose. Many people think they do, but the only legal right that you have are to have your child educated by the state, and to express a preference which school they should attend.

Turning down the place will mean that legally the local authority has done its bit and is under no obligation to offer anything else.

I'm still not convinced you understand that the national curriculum for religion will be exactly the same regardless of whether your GS goes to a CofE school or not. There is likely to be absolutely no difference at all - often non-CofE schools are far more 'churchy' than their CofE counterparts - it depends on the Head and Governors to a large extent.

Furthermore I'm not sure you understand that legally ALL schools have to have some form of daily worship which is broadly Christian in nature.

All you can do at this point is ensure your GS is on waiting lists for other schools, and in the meantime don't turn down this place otherwise come September he may be faced with no school at all.

@Yellowmellow2 - nobody is giving the OP a tough time. People have been trying to be helpful and explain that overwhelmingly, CofE schools don't tend to be anymore religious than non-CofE schools. All schools in the UK are supposed to have a daily act of worship and all schools will study all main religions and tell stories from all the main religions.

What wasn't clear was how many preferences the child's parents had put on the form and - as isn't always the case - if they were realistic choices, nor, in the first instance if this were one of the preferences stated or not.

What is puzzling many of us is that the OP says they don't mind the religious education and the acts of worship, but purely objects to the name of the school, which does seem odd. In my mind, what the school was teaching would be FAR more important than if it were called St Bernadettes, St David's, Newtown school or Al-Furqan School.

C of E schools are normally very mildly religious, and very gentle and lovely in my experience. We are atheists but would prioritise getting our kids into a C of E school because of their kind ethos/good reputations (how hypocritical of us, I’m sure).

As PP have said, all schools in England have religious education on the curriculum, and some form of collective daily worship. So you can’t avoid that.

I would give the Ofsted report a read before turning it down. It might be a good school.

Even if you stated that no religious affiliated school was acceptable on the form it may have made no difference if all the schools listed on the application were oversubscribed and this one was nearest with a place after preferences were considered. There may be movement on wl or it may be worth asking if any others have places but if not your their choice is this school or no LA school. Even religious schools often have a number of community places, catering for children from diverse backgrounds, and it is doubtful it will be overly didactic on a day to day basis.

What advice are you looking for OP?

You can go on waiting lists for other schools.

You won't win an appeal (to get a place ahead of the waiting list) because you don't like CofE in the name of the school, or because you have a different faith.

If it helps, most schools are not known by their full title on a day to day basis. For example, Handsworth and St Ives CofE Primary School would be 'Handsworth Primary'.

I've had one of my children educated by a church school and my other one educated by a state school. The church school was a va one so more religious than the usual c of e school. Interestingly it is my state educated child that comes home proclaiming he's a Christian and talks about God a lot.
My eldest educated by the church declared he wanted to be a Buddist by the time he was 7.
The only actual difference in the end was that they said a prayer before they went home.
As with most things it's all about balance and ensuring that your child is rounded.

If they had wanted to appeal the offer should they have not done it ages ago? There is about 5 weeks until the end of this academic year. Appeals would (I assume) have been done and gone. Have they only just realised it's a CofE school ?
The reason so many schools in England are CofE schools is because the church started schools before the government did. They offered a free (or often a penny fee) education to all children regardless of faith. When the 1870 education act made education compulsory for all the CofE schools began to be funded by the government but retained their church link. It is hard to avoid CofE schools - especially in villages where they are the only school and they (usually) accept children of all faiths and none.
Modern CofE schools are usually no more religious than a non faith school. The daily act of worship is technically compulsory in all schools although many schools don't do prayers or whatever but an assembly with a message or thought which can be relevant whether the child is being raised as religious (any religion) or not.
Almost all schools do some sort of Christmas play/singing/fair and Easter Egg hunts etc even if they are a non faith school.
All schools learn about all religions and all will get visits once in a while from people like the local Vicar, Iman, Rabbi, leader of the local Humanist group etc - which is usually about community and not faith.

I really don’t understand OP. My daughter is at the local school- just about to leave juniors- and it is CoE as that is our national faith. We are catholic. It is just the local school surely? They certainly don’t push religion at you other than the normal nativity and harvest festival etc. As previous pp said their values are ones I am keen for my child to have.

[quote Emma2021]@Yellowmellow2
Thank you again.
Some of the comments here and unnecessary but Ijudging by other threads some just want to have a go rather than help.
Many have been helpful/etc but quiet a few as just not called for.

To answer a few points raised.

Yes, it is up to our dear GS's parents but they are like minded and seek our guidance as we do theirs as we are a close family, thanks.

For sure, as stated by me we have no problem with assembies etc but i am aware some catholic children do not attend them, their choice as is the schools.

I'm sure the c of e school won't preach the religion to our GS 24/7 but we do not want him to go three. We were not aware there was a C 0f E school near us therefore did not mention of app form.

To reiterate, we would not send our GS to a school that practices our relgion and we believe in God.

A poster that said we may get the placing at the school for our dear GS as people change their minds or decide for another school, thanks for that.

Bottom line, we live and let live as long as it's within the law but we have a right to choice within the law. At work I know of people that would never go to another religions place of worship, we would as we would as in our judgement they won't convert us. However, we do not want our GS going to a school with a mention of ANY region in the school name that is who we are and what we want as we do steer clear of politics and religion.

Many thanks to all that sincerely tried to help/recommend.[/quote]
I work in a church school. We have 100% Muslim children!

@leafinthewind

In many areas in the UK, it's pretty much impossible to truly have a choice where your kids go to school. I'm an atheist and my kids go to the catchment primary school, which is C of E. I wish the Church weren't involved in educating a third of English kids. I wish a daily act of worship were not included in legislation for all schools. But we live in an imperfect world.

On the whole, C of E schools are fine, even for atheists. You'll have to negotiate Easter, which is a little tricky to begin with. But it will be fine.

My eldest was horrified by Easter, though. First we have Christmas. The little baby Jesus is cute, and hangs out with farm animals. Then a couple of months later, he's nailed to a cross. "Mummy did they REALLY nail the baby Jesus to a piece of wood?!" "Yes, my love, but it wasn't quite as horrific as you're imagining, because he was in his mid-30s." Seriously - would we teach four year olds about torture in any other context?!

Thus is exactly my take on things! (My DC do not take part in re around Easter themes as it distressed them, the school were fine with my request.)

Beyone that, my DC experience of school doesn't seem particularly different to the non cofe schools I know of. The non denominational school in the next village still does a nativity play and uses the local church for their big celebrations etc. I happen to know that the head there is an active member of their church whereas the head at our C of e school is not outwardly religious at all.

As atheists, DH and I have always had honest conversations about faith and religion at home and our views on various themes. None of my DC seem remotely harmed by attending a denominational school and are both able to understand the value of religious faith to some people whilst personally not believing in God themselves.

@Soontobe60

How is your point relevant to my question?

Putting religion to one side.

Your choices are limited. You've missed the appeals process so I think you are left with going on waiting lists for schools - ring your council and ask for a list of schools and ask to add your name. Be aware that you may be quite far down the lists depending on their criteria (I think ours goes by distance).

Aside from that there isn't much you cd. Do other than speak to the new school and discuss your concerns to see if they can allay your fears.

Honestly the name of the school a the last thing you should be worried about. My kids are at a faith school and they don't share that faith - it's never been an issue.

[quote Emma2021]@Soontobe60

How is your point relevant to my question?[/quote]
What is your question?

Hi there did the parents reject or accept the place offered?

There are hundreds and hundreds of non-religious schools so if this is the top priority for his parents then they could put him on the waiting list of every non-religious school they could possibly get him to. If the school has a place they will be offered that place.

I hate to break it to you OP, but schools don’t have children 24/7. They have them for less than six hours a day, five days a week, but only for 39 weeks of the year. The rest of the time they are yours .

Additionally, during school time they have lunch breaks, play breaks, maths, English, PE, art, IT etc etc etc. There honestly isn’t much time for them to indoctrinate the children .

Unless there is a school that isn’t a faith school locally that has places then the only option will be to home school or pay for a private education then.

When you apply you express a preference it’s not some sort of guarantee

I teach in a CofE schools and my DC attend one. I have also taught in non- faith schools and there is very little difference. At the CofE school we have a half-termly value loosely related to Christianity and there is a daily prayer in Collective worship and at lunchtime, but we often had a prayer in CW at the non-faith schools too. There is slightly more focus on Christianity in RE lessons but all other religions are also taught.

I once taught in a Catholic school and that was much more faith-focused.

There are good and bad faith schools

There are good and bad non-faith schools.

See what the school offers.

Parents do not have the right to choose a state school, they apply for a state school place, and express their preferences. OP mentioned London, where councils work together in a pan-London system and the form allows parents to list 6 preferences.

Applicants will be made one offer, which will be either the the one they listed highest on their form for which they qualify, or the nearest school which has a vacancy. It seems that the parents here did not qualify for any of the schools they listed.

The good news is that there is always a lot of churn in Lodon school places. If the parents do not want their DC to go to this school, and as OP hasn't mentioned anything that could possibly be grounds to appeal, then the options are to Home Educate, seek a private school place, or to seek a different state school place.

For the latter, the parents need to double check that they are indeed on the waiting lists for the schools they listed as preferences (it's usually automatic, but always worth checking), and also add DC to waiting lists for any other schools they would find acceptable.

Also, see if there are any undersubscribed schools - the council will offer the closest one to your home address but there may be others that you would find convenient. And if you apply to an underscribed school (which by definition will have no waiting list) then you must be offered a place.

How is your point relevant to my question?
What is your question? I cant see that you have actually asked a question yet?

Did the child's parents put this school on the application form?

I have 2 DC at a C of E.

No real indication of any religious tones at all. It’s just a primary. Most are.

But then you are not taking any notice when PPs are telling you that.