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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Primary Place withdrawn due to human error!

104 replies

MoonShimmer · 27/04/2021 10:15

Good morning,

I was hoping to get some advice. My son was offered his first choice for primary on the 16th of April which I accepted within minutes. 8 days later I received a phone call from the LA to say that they were withdrawing his offer as they had made a 'human error' and offered out 78 places but there were only 60 available at the school. They said that they would look at putting him in his next choice but ultimately he has wound up at his third choice.

Obviously myself and his dad are fighting this, our friend's whos son had also been offered a place has had theirs withdrawn too. It was my understanding that thier error wasn't a good enough reason to withdraw all the places? We have asked why our son was chosen and they have simply said "they followed the criteria and distance" but we have evidence i.e actually speaking to the other people involved that they live further away, no siblings or additional needs, not cared for ECT or meet any of the criteria.

They have also said that he has missed out on his second choice as they last place was offered to a child outside criteria but closer than us but surely if they hadn't waited 8 DAYS to even look at giving him another placement he might have been more likely to get into his second choice? Especially as the LA say they don't do it by first come first served?

Also the woman who callled said they found on about all this on Tuesday but the supervisor said the school called on Monday and told them........so it took them till Friday to even tell us......I would just appreciate some advice on where to start with all this please? I'm heart broken and furious that apparently they can just do this and see absolutely no consequences!

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AngstyMom · 27/04/2021 10:18

No advice but am bumping for you. This is appalling!

PreparationPreparationPrep · 27/04/2021 10:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

itsgettingwierd · 27/04/2021 10:27

There's some really knowledgable people on MN about admissions. I'm sure they'll see this soon and give you fantastic advice.

In the meantime I'm really sorry about this. It's such a shit situation and you can't help but wonder if those 18 hadn't been given places that doesn't exist how many would have got 2nd choice. Because many of those at your 2nd choice may have had it first and your 3rd choice was their 2nd iyswim?

Seems like you have a large number of students getting 3rd choice and equal number possibly getting first.

I don't know if that's enough basis to appeal but there are lots of posters who can advise you properly.

Original poster

MoonShimmer · 27/04/2021 10:27

@PreparationPreparationPrep

No advice but adding a bump. I would assume appealing is the only way, do you have the criteria for appealing and could this come under any of the criteria?

Yes, we are putting an appeal together atm. I honestly find it slightly offensive that we have to put an appeal in at all considering it was THIER mistake, its not like we are a typical case of just wanting our child to movve.

OP posts:

PegPeople · 27/04/2021 10:27

I might be wrong and some way more knowledgable person will be along in a minute to correct me.

However when I used to teach I was always under the impression that they could only withdraw an offer in a very short amount of time after it was made. I would be seriously questioning whether 8 days exceeded that small window.

Whereismymojo · 27/04/2021 10:32

What a nightmare!

If they can revoke your offer, they should at the very least follow their own logic and revoke someone from your second choice school, who should not have been offered a place due to their “human error”, and offer it to you?

Lougle · 27/04/2021 10:34

They can only withdraw the place within a few days. 8 is too late. However, the difficulty is that there will be 18 people with the same story, so the LA will make you go to appeal. There is no way that a school could accommodate an extra 18 children, unless they decide to open a bulge class. But that's really unlikely if there are enough schools to accommodate the children, albeit not their first choice.

Therefore, it will fall to the panel to decide how many children could be accepted by the school (probably 4 at the most, if it's a 2 form entry) and then prioritise the 18 children to see who gets the place. So at least 14 children won't succeed at appeal, despite the fact that if they were the only 'victim', they would succeed.

Sajani · 27/04/2021 10:38

@Whereismymojo

What a nightmare!

I read it as the last place in second choice school went to someone higher up the ‘priorities’ list anyway - a place would never have been offered here.

I find it absolutely appalling. Surely with 18 extra kids that now have furious parents they should be looking at a ‘bulge’ class?!

Also, is this North Tyneside by chance? I’ve heard stories of big issues there this offer season.

admission · 27/04/2021 10:43

You are unfortunately in a "grey area" in terms of admission legislation. There are old legal cases going back 20+ years which would suggest that if the delay between being told you have a place and being rescinded is more than 3 days then this unacceptable as the parents have by then a reasonable expectation of the place being offered is secured.
However many LAs argue that the 2014 admission guidance paragraph 2.12 does not cover this and therefore they can withdraw the places if it was made in error. Until somebody takes this to court we will continue to be in the situation of not being sure what the situation is in such cases.
You can clearly argue at appeal that the old legal cases should have legal validity, whereas the LA will argue the guidance does say places can be withdraw if made in error. The panel will have to make a decision but are going to be swayed to some extend by the number of pupils involved in this mistake.
In your case it would appear to be an error of gigantic proportions, if 18 places were offered over the PAN of 60. Just saying it was human error is not good enough as an explanation. There has to be a reason behind how all the places were offered in error. The issue for the LA is now what to do. They have taken the decision to remove the places. Your post is not clear on the way that the 18 places were withdrawn but there is absolutely no question that this should have been that the 60 available places were offered to the 60 pupils at the top of the admission criteria list for the school. Any suggestion that some other kind of criteria were used is clearly incorrect.
This means that you have not only lost the place for your first preference school but also not been given a place at your second preference place. Again you have a case at appeal as to whether if the LA had correctly carried out the allocation at your first preference school you would have been offered a place at your second preference school. That is not clear from your post. The problem for the LA is that this process causes a cascade of questions and appeals about what has happened and whether it was done correctly. It does question with so many pupils involved whether the right decision should have been to accept the error and some how accommodate all the pupils in the school.
The priority has to be to ensure that you are on the waiting list for your first and second preference schools and get the appeal in place, whilst still arguing with the LA to make a more sensible decision covering all 18 of the pupils.

Whereismymojo · 27/04/2021 10:45

@Sajani yes you’re right, I read too fast!

Hersetta427 · 27/04/2021 10:52

You might also want to appeal for your second choice as their mistake offering you your first choice might have cost you a place at that school also as you may have been offered that ahead of the third place school.

The fact there is 18 of you may be problematic as the school maybe able to take an odd 1 or 2 pupils they probably won't have room for 18.

Original poster

MoonShimmer · 27/04/2021 10:56

"You are unfortunately in a "grey area" in terms of admission legislation. There are old legal cases going back 20+ years which would suggest that if the delay between being told you have a place and being rescinded is more than 3 days then this unacceptable as the parents have by then a reasonable expectation of the place being offered is secured.
However many LAs argue that the 2014 admission guidance paragraph 2.12 does not cover this and therefore they can withdraw the places if it was made in error. Until somebody takes this to court we will continue to be in the situation of not being sure what the situation is in such cases."

Thank you, my understanding of this was that, yes its not written in the legislation now but it wasn't actually written into the old legislation either but it was still followed? So could we argue precedence in that way?

OP posts:

AngstyMom · 27/04/2021 10:56

Depends if all 18 contest it though. Some may be unable to, some unwilling to.

Lougle · 27/04/2021 10:58

@MoonShimmer

"You are unfortunately in a "grey area" in terms of admission legislation. There are old legal cases going back 20+ years which would suggest that if the delay between being told you have a place and being rescinded is more than 3 days then this unacceptable as the parents have by then a reasonable expectation of the place being offered is secured. However many LAs argue that the 2014 admission guidance paragraph 2.12 does not cover this and therefore they can withdraw the places if it was made in error. Until somebody takes this to court we will continue to be in the situation of not being sure what the situation is in such cases."

You could, but so could each of the other 17. Which is why it's difficult. It will all need to be unpicked to work out what is the fairest solution.

Nith · 27/04/2021 11:05

What is the legal status of the admission guidance? is it statutory? Because if it isn't, that would tend to suggest that the case law should have precedence.

RevolvingPivot · 27/04/2021 11:09

I don't think you would have got your second choice as the other child met the criteria more than you?

Original poster

MoonShimmer · 27/04/2021 11:12

@RevolvingPivot

I don't think you would have got your second choice as the other child met the criteria more than you?

Maybe not, i'm not too bothered about that issue to be honest. The overall response seems copy and pasted and there are things she has said that are very different from what we were told previously. But at the same time you can argue that although THAT child met the criteria more than us, what about the others? Where are they all from?

OP posts:

RevolvingPivot · 27/04/2021 11:14

Can you go on a waiting list for first and second while you try and sort it?

Original poster

MoonShimmer · 27/04/2021 11:20

@RevolvingPivot

Can you go on a waiting list for first and second while you try and sort it?

Yes we are on the waiting list for our first choice but even that seems shady as our friends are also on it but higher up than our son despite us living closer? They don't meet any of the criteria either with no siblings at the school, no needs, ect so we aren't really even sure how they are allocating spaces for that?

We have also been told that someone WAY out of the catchment area has been given and retained a spot but they also don't meet the criteria either?

OP posts:

admission · 27/04/2021 11:33

To answer the questions, yes you are correct that the admission guidance has never had in it the detail around the old court cases that I referred to. However the guidance is statutory so we are back to the issue of how wording and old legal cases can be interpreted legally. As this situation happens every year, it really would be good if a case did go to court and a new legal interpretation made on the wording around what is reasonable and unreasonable.
You absolutely should argue that the old cases are precedence and should be considered above what is in the guidance as that has not been tested in court.

Nith · 27/04/2021 11:38

I'd suggest you start pushing now for details of how they made the decision which places to withdraw. They can't give personal information but they should at least be able to tell you what the criteria were. It may well be that people who live further away from you have priority by virtue of being siblings, looked after children, children with EHCPs, or other special reasons. It might be worth making a Data Protection Act request.

Original poster

MoonShimmer · 27/04/2021 11:57

@Nith

We know there is one case where none of this applies at all, we both had our offers withdrawn but there child is a lot further up the waiting list than ours even though we are closer. There is another case of a friend of a friend saying her child has gotten in our of catchment area where none of this applies either but this is obviously hear say so not admissible unlike with the other case as these are our personal friends.

OP posts:

Sajani · 27/04/2021 11:59

@Nith

I agree with this - if you can ascertain that there’s lots of others ahead of you in the waiting list, the sensible ‘attack’ may be encourage a group challenge to the LA about why a bulge class can’t be done.

I’m not an admissions specialist btw, just my thoughts.

Movisoul · 27/04/2021 12:13

Be the parent that shouts the loudest as it will make it much more likely you will be heard. Tell them if they got it wrong, they should be reallocating all the places- not just shoving you into your 3rd place because that's easier for them. Ask them why they aren't starting again from scratch, threaten with local media, complain and demand written responses and them to clarify their approach.

Nith · 27/04/2021 12:18

We have a school near us which had a system whereby they took three classes, i.e. 90 children for two years out of three, and 60 children the third year, because they only had eight classrooms for the infant side of the school. The trouble was that the standard admission number was averaged out at 80 children a year. When it came to appeals for the third year, the appeal panel took the view that because they'd allocated for 10 under the admission number they had no choice but to allow 10 appeals. Apparently the person presenting the case for the school had a fit, but the school decided to suck it up, put in a bulge class and offer places to another 10 applicants to cover the costs, and then did some long term building works so they could offer three form entry every year so they never had the problem again.

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