Primary Place withdrawn due to human error!

[MoonShimmer]

Good morning,

I was hoping to get some advice. My son was offered his first choice for primary on the 16th of April which I accepted within minutes. 8 days later I received a phone call from the LA to say that they were withdrawing his offer as they had made a 'human error' and offered out 78 places but there were only 60 available at the school. They said that they would look at putting him in his next choice but ultimately he has wound up at his third choice.

Obviously myself and his dad are fighting this, our friend's whos son had also been offered a place has had theirs withdrawn too. It was my understanding that thier error wasn't a good enough reason to withdraw all the places? We have asked why our son was chosen and they have simply said "they followed the criteria and distance" but we have evidence i.e actually speaking to the other people involved that they live further away, no siblings or additional needs, not cared for ECT or meet any of the criteria.

They have also said that he has missed out on his second choice as they last place was offered to a child outside criteria but closer than us but surely if they hadn't waited 8 DAYS to even look at giving him another placement he might have been more likely to get into his second choice? Especially as the LA say they don't do it by first come first served?

Also the woman who callled said they found on about all this on Tuesday but the supervisor said the school called on Monday and told them........so it took them till Friday to even tell us......I would just appreciate some advice on where to start with all this please? I'm heart broken and furious that apparently they can just do this and see absolutely no consequences!

Get in contact with your local MP on the matter to put pressure on the LO for your sons first choice school.

If they can revoke your offer, they should at the very least follow their own logic and revoke someone from your second choice school, who should not have been offered a place due to their “human error”, and offer it to you?
This. I would want to know that everyone at the first choice school was higher priority than me, and everyone at the second choice school was higher priority too. Otherwise they should be revoking someone else and giving me that place. Imo they need to look at the whole thing again and reallocate places, even if that means revoking people at other schools.

Seeing as there are 18 of you, I would attempt to band together and pressure the school into putting on a bulge class.

Our local primary had to turn away something like 13 in-catchment children one year due to a one-off freakishly high intake. They initially claimed they couldn’t offer a bulge class but, with support from the LA, ended up accommodating one in a mobile class room. The bulge class is Year 5 now and there have been no problems at all.

I definitely would not expect people to be sacked over the mistake, but I’d like some reassurance that lessons had been learned and processed updated to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

Write to your MP and say you think there are irregularities in the schools selection procedure. Explain what happened and you want to know why other children living further from the school have been offered places.

@Itsanewdayforme

It sounds very stressful OP. So sorry to hear that this has happened to you.

I would tread carefully over questioning why other children were offered places over yours.
There may well be reasons which you are unaware of, such as the child having been adopted (previously looked after child) or special educational needs that you are unaware of.

I would not like to be questioned about why my child was offered a place over another.

The OP should be asking the LA. The LA will not reveal any personal data but should be able to justify their decisions as to which offers were withdrawn. They should have used only the admission criteria of the school affected by the mistake and should not have taken any other factors into account.

If the OP raises questions in the hearing, the appeal panel will want to see evidence from the LA that they have used the admission criteria to decide which children retain their places.

@MoonShimmer this is exactly what has happened to us. I got a call late on Friday explaining briefly what had happened and saying they were retracting the offer and putting him down for the 2nd choice. When I asked what my full options were she said she didn't have time to! I received a letter by email on Sunday stating that the extra places were manually added into the system, so that's how they managed to offer them out. I called back on Monday and didn't get to speak to the same lady and the lady I did speak to was a bit dismissive. I'm finding it all a bit overwhelming to be honest so I'm finding the advice from people on hear very helpful to be know what questions I should be asking and putting my appeal together. Thank you

Thank you for all the advice so far. I actually managed to get into contact with the county councilor's portfolio holder for education (useless, just said yeah we know, appeal it) and the assistant director of education and learning whom I am still waiting for a response from.

I've been looking at things that I need to prove though and I am finding it difficult, I'm wondering how did some people manage to prove that having more than 30 in a class isn't detrimental? What did people put for reasonings why it had to be THIS school above others? It seems the most logical reasons for wanting a school aren't seen as valid reasons to the LA and I'm really wracking my brains for a compelling argument beyond the obvious.

@MoonShimmer you're talking about the balance of prejudice.

In terms of class sizes, you could ask for their intakes for the last 6 or so years. If any years have had an intake over 30, that shows they coped. They should produce a school capacity assessment. If the rooms are particularly large, that would be a good sign the room could take more than 30. If the room is an awkward shape, or has lots of unusable space, then less children can be fitted in despite the room size.

Arguments for why the school is the best for your DD would be tricky in year R if she has no exceptional circumstances. Looking at things like wrap around care, or clubs, etc., might help.

Having said that, ultimately this is still an infant class size appeal, so the panel could decide the school can't take more than 30.

"In terms of class sizes, you could ask for their intakes for the last 6 or so years."

This information is available online. Look for school census data. I found it when i was preparing for an appeal - I was able to show how many children had been in classes previously and why admitting 1 more child wasn't detrimental to the class size.

www.gov.uk/government/collections/statistics-school-and-pupil-numbers

...although my appeal wasn't for a R, 1 or 2 place - they are limited in class size and can only go over in very certain circumstances.

This information is available online. Look for school census data.

Not any more, I'm afraid. Unless I'm missing something, the limited amount of school census data published these days doesn't tell you class sizes or numbers admitted for an individual school.

I wonder if the ones further away referenced having family nearby, who would support childcare. This was relevant for me to mention for my DS secondary school application, but he has some learning differences that mean he cannot walk home from school reliably.

I know of one person asked for a school as it was fairly flat compared to others (fewer stairs) as years before their child was assessed for a potential spatial awareness difference that turned into nothing.

If the other 18 sets of parents now think of reasons that the school benefits their DC, it may not matter how close you are as they will show a need for a place.

I wonder if the ones further away referenced having family nearby, who would support childcare.

It doesn't matter if they did. That is not relevant for admissions purposes. When a mistake is made, the LA and admission authority must ensure that the places go to those highest on the admission criteria. They cannot invent some other method of choosing who keeps a place, nor can they make subjective judgements.

If the other 18 sets of parents now think of reasons that the school benefits their DC, it may not matter how close you are as they will show a need for a place

That also is irrelevant. The vast majority of people who want a particular school do so because they perceive a benefit for their child; the only way the argument would work is if it's in the nature of a medical or social benefit supported by evidence (e.g. school away from sources of pollution for an asthmatic child, other relatives in the school for a recently bereaved child) and there are no other schools with available places that offer the same benefits.

I'm sorry but I disagree with Nith.

If all 18 sets of parents appeal and the appeal panel decide the school cannot cope with all 18 pupils, the appeal panel is required to decide how many the school can handle and then compare cases to decide which ones to admit. It is true that medical or social needs with appropriate evidence generally trump all other needs, but a parent who can show that their child will particularly benefit from, say, an extra-curricular activity offered by the appeal school has a stronger case than a parent who cannot show a specific benefit.

I agree with prh, which is why you need to look at every aspect of the school and list all the things which make the school a better fit.

@prh47bridge

This information is available online. Look for school census data.

Not any more, I'm afraid. Unless I'm missing something, the limited amount of school census data published these days doesn't tell you class sizes or numbers admitted for an individual school.

It's on content.explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/api/releases/759ddb6d-b508-4f92-8c64-c517c473d75f/files/dc0aaef0-440b-4ffe-1d72-08d821b5e5ef This is the data for all schools.

That tells you a lot about number of classes with 1-30 pupils, number of classes with 31-35 pupils, number of classes with 36+ pupils, average size of classes and so on. It allows you to figure out the total number of pupils in KS1 and KS2. However, it doesn't tell you anything about the number of pupils admitted or the number of pupils in each year. That is what is needed for appeal.

@prh47bridge

I'm sorry but I disagree with Nith.

If all 18 sets of parents appeal and the appeal panel decide the school cannot cope with all 18 pupils, the appeal panel is required to decide how many the school can handle and then compare cases to decide which ones to admit. It is true that medical or social needs with appropriate evidence generally trump all other needs, but a parent who can show that their child will particularly benefit from, say, an extra-curricular activity offered by the appeal school has a stronger case than a parent who cannot show a specific benefit.

If the panel decides that the school can handle, say, ten extra, the starting point is the admissions criteria. Assuming that none of the parents has demonstrated that prejudice to their child outweighs prejudice to the school, the approach has to be allocating places to the ten who live closest to the school. The fact that, say, the child who lives furthest away happens to be particularly good at art and there's a good after school art club couldn't justify that child skipping the queue.

The other thing you need to consider is whether you would want your child being taught in such a large class if several appeals were granted?

Does the school have the space to accommodate a bulge class?

If the panel decides that the school can handle, say, ten extra, the starting point is the admissions criteria

I hope you aren't an appeal panellist because that is wrong. The Appeals Code is clear that panels must "uphold those with the strongest case for admission" (paragraph 3.9). Similarly, paragraph 4.9, referring to ICS appeals, says the panel must, "compare each appellant’s case for their child to be admitted". Simply following the admission criteria and ignoring the individual cases is a clear breach of the Appeals Code. If an appeal panel doesn't look at the arguments made and simply uses the admission criteria, their decision is vulnerable to judicial review.

"The fact that, say, the child who lives furthest away happens to be particularly good at art and there's a good after school art club couldn't justify that child skipping the queue."

Absolutely it could! In effect, once the panel decides the school can accept x number of children, it becomes a prejudice appeal.

Good morning ladies, thank you for all the advice you have given so far. A random thought that occurred to me, are waiting lists still done in alphabetical order? As my mother who was the head of Admin and the PA to the deputy said that's how they were run before and thinking about it, our friends who are higher up the wait list than us (although fall into the same wait list criteria as us) their last name comes before us in the alphabet....? But going onto the LA website this isn't the way they say its structured?

No, they aren't done in alphabetical order; they're compiled using the admissions criteria.

Panels have to use objective criteria in deciding who has the strongest case for admission, they cannot allocate places on the basis of which child has the most eloquent parent. A panel that allowed a place in a school with an after-school art club to a child who would otherwise be last in the list, on the basis that they were said to be good at art, would certainly be subject to challenge. You have to work on the assumption that any school can teach art, and indeed with something like an after-school club there's no guarantee that it will even still be running by the time the child gets there.

@Nith

No, they aren't done in alphabetical order; they're compiled using the admissions criteria.

Panels have to use objective criteria in deciding who has the strongest case for admission, they cannot allocate places on the basis of which child has the most eloquent parent. A panel that allowed a place in a school with an after-school art club to a child who would otherwise be last in the list, on the basis that they were said to be good at art, would certainly be subject to challenge. You have to work on the assumption that any school can teach art, and indeed with something like an after-school club there's no guarantee that it will even still be running by the time the child gets there.

Well maybe this is an issue I need to bring up in my appeal then as our friends are most defiantly higher up the wait list than us but have categorically been told they are in the same bracket as us according to the LA although we live closer to the school (which the LA do site as effecting the number you are on the wait list) . So unless it IS being done alphabetically still there is no other reason for it?