Primary Place withdrawn due to human error!

[MoonShimmer]

Good morning,

I was hoping to get some advice. My son was offered his first choice for primary on the 16th of April which I accepted within minutes. 8 days later I received a phone call from the LA to say that they were withdrawing his offer as they had made a 'human error' and offered out 78 places but there were only 60 available at the school. They said that they would look at putting him in his next choice but ultimately he has wound up at his third choice.

Obviously myself and his dad are fighting this, our friend's whos son had also been offered a place has had theirs withdrawn too. It was my understanding that thier error wasn't a good enough reason to withdraw all the places? We have asked why our son was chosen and they have simply said "they followed the criteria and distance" but we have evidence i.e actually speaking to the other people involved that they live further away, no siblings or additional needs, not cared for ECT or meet any of the criteria.

They have also said that he has missed out on his second choice as they last place was offered to a child outside criteria but closer than us but surely if they hadn't waited 8 DAYS to even look at giving him another placement he might have been more likely to get into his second choice? Especially as the LA say they don't do it by first come first served?

Also the woman who callled said they found on about all this on Tuesday but the supervisor said the school called on Monday and told them........so it took them till Friday to even tell us......I would just appreciate some advice on where to start with all this please? I'm heart broken and furious that apparently they can just do this and see absolutely no consequences!

It should be done purely on the basis of distance unless they have other reasons for needing a place (supported by evidence) that you don't know about, e.g. a child with sensory difficulties who needs to be in a smaller school.

@Nith

It should be done purely on the basis of distance unless they have other reasons for needing a place (supported by evidence) that you don't know about, e.g. a child with sensory difficulties who needs to be in a smaller school.

Nope, husbands have been best friends since they were 12, both children have been extremely close since they were born, we see them every single week, its not like they are distance friends who we know little about, we have even been strategising and passing information for each of our appeals and having 'meetings' to discuss. Even they want to bring up how the wait list is organized as they cannot understand why they have been placed higher.

Is there a way to find out what position you are on the waiting list?

And when is will we know if we got a place from the second round allocations?

@Onceuponatime1818

Is there a way to find out what position you are on the waiting list?

And when is will we know if we got a place from the second round allocations?

We asked when we called the LA so you could call your LA and ask them to tell you? And I'm assuming they will send you a letter or an email to let you know if you get it, so if you get nothing it means you didn't get in?

Assuming they are in the same admissions category as you, the most likely explanation for them being higher on the waiting list is that they are actually closer to the school based on the way the LA measures distance. I have come across a number of cases over the years where parents A and B agree that parent A lives closer to the school but, using the way the LA measures distance, B is actually closer.

It is possible that the LA is getting the distance wrong or has put one of you in the wrong category, of course. The only other explanation I can immediately think of is that there was movement on the waiting list between them asking and you asking. Remember that you can go down the waiting list as well as up.

There is no way any LA in England would put the waiting list in alphabetical order.

The only people who know what the waiting list order is and the reasons why people are in the order they are in, is the LA at this time. Whilst the LA should tell you where you are on the waiting list, they are not going to tell anybody else where you are on the waiting list or vice versa.
I suggest that you ask by email to be told where you are on the waiting list so that you can assess whether or not there is a realistic chance of getting a place of the waiting list. Their response should be you are in position X but this can go up or down on a daily basis.
Whilst I applaud the fact that as friends you are discussing the relative positions you might be on the waiting list and potential arguments to improve your chance at appeal, I do think that you need to be a little careful as you might be putting yourself in a position of not getting a place but giving your friend the vital bit of information that gets them a place instead of you.

@prh47bridge

Assuming they are in the same admissions category as you, the most likely explanation for them being higher on the waiting list is that they are actually closer to the school based on the way the LA measures distance. I have come across a number of cases over the years where parents A and B agree that parent A lives closer to the school but, using the way the LA measures distance, B is actually closer.

It is possible that the LA is getting the distance wrong or has put one of you in the wrong category, of course. The only other explanation I can immediately think of is that there was movement on the waiting list between them asking and you asking. Remember that you can go down the waiting list as well as up.

There is no way any LA in England would put the waiting list in alphabetical order.

We did ask the woman on the phone and she did state they measure as the crow flies and told us the distance between us and the school and so we told our friends to do the same and she told them they were 0.2 miles further than us away?

We asked on the same day, it was a case of my friend calling me hysterical that they had taken their place to an hour later me getting the same phone call? I haven't checked where we are lately though as I think it can lead to getting your hopes up for no reason.

Maybe its a thing schools who decide work it then @prh47bridge? My mum was involved in the process and that's what she said they did? And also my dad actually when I went to school said that's the way they ran it as my Nannar was involved in that school? But you are right, to do it that way would be massively unfair.

Even they want to bring up how the wait list is organized as they cannot understand why they have been placed higher.

I appreciate that you are close friends but unless they don't really care about getting a place at this school and don't mind ending up further down the list I can't see any reason why they would be querying and drawing attention to their place on the list above you... I think you're being naive here.

18 additional places 🤯 that's one major cock up!

Sorry no advice, but just to say, I hope your appeal goes well OP 🤞🤞

I'm not an expert but I really don't think that's how school admission appeals work.

Being the parent of a child with SEN and speaking to many others, this is absolutely how it works. If you quietly follow the processes, they will knock you back. If you want something done you make a nuisance of yourself.

Waiting lists are administered by the LA at this stage. The school is unlikely to have any involvement at all. It is possible they have some involvement if they are their own admission authority (an academy, free school or VA school) but even there it will be minimal. The school is more likely to manage its own waiting list from the start of term in September. Even then, they must use the admission criteria to order the waiting list. They cannot choose to do anything else.

Without knowing which school is involved it is impossible to comment in detail, but I would be very surprised if an LA was getting this wrong.

@MintyMabel

I'm not an expert but I really don't think that's how school admission appeals work.

Being the parent of a child with SEN and speaking to many others, this is absolutely how it works. If you quietly follow the processes, they will knock you back. If you want something done you make a nuisance of yourself.

It really isn't how admission appeals work. I agree that parents of SEN children need to have sharp elbows and shout loudly to get an EHCP and appropriate support, but admission appeals are different. In this situation an admissions team is highly unlikely to do anything - from their perspective, it is much better to have the cover of successful appeals to explain why more children have been admitted rather than having to own up to making a mistake.

@MoonShimmer are you sure it's as the crow flies? When we've looked (house hunting in a couple of LEA's) it's been shortest walking distance to an open/in use gate using recognised walking routes. Does Google maps put your friends closer than you? Or is there more than one entry point that would change it?

[quote bumbledeedum]@MoonShimmer are you sure it's as the crow flies? When we've looked (house hunting in a couple of LEA's) it's been shortest walking distance to an open/in use gate using recognised walking routes. Does Google maps put your friends closer than you? Or is there more than one entry point that would change it?[/quote]
Yes i'm sure as this is what the LA said on the phone and in an email that was sent to my son's father. No google maps as the crow flies feature puts our friend further away than us.

Sorry everyone, i'm just in the midst of writing my appeal, is there a case number I can quote for the cases that have gone to court and won based on the previous 3 day rule?

It is a mixture of one case that has gone to judicial review and an LGO case. The LGO case reference is 99C01876.

@prh47bridge

It is a mixture of one case that has gone to judicial review and an LGO case. The LGO case reference is 99C01876.

thank you very much @prh47bridge, (can I ask what LGO is an abbreviation for please?)

Again thank you for the advice throughout, I appreciate it.

LGO = Local Government Ombudsman. They are the people you go to if there are problems with the way an appeal for a community or VC school is conducted. When this ruling was made, they dealt with appeals for all types of school.

@prh47bridge

LGO = Local Government Ombudsman. They are the people you go to if there are problems with the way an appeal for a community or VC school is conducted. When this ruling was made, they dealt with appeals for all types of school.

Ah yes thank you, I had looked into this before we discovered the school was Voluntarily controlled. Thank you so much again.

Sorry to keep returning like a bad smell guys! I'm just a little worried about getting information for our appeal, it almost seems like the school doesn't want to tell us anything....

They run a number of different programs and skill builders, to which I ask the head teacher if he could tell me how these things impact pupil attainment, how they effect pupil physical/mental wellbeing ect....and the headteacher just said "it does really have any impact really"....

So NOTHING they offer has any impact, they just do it for the fun of it? I was hoping to use the fact that they have, say a link to the Royal Shakespeare company as evidence that It has a big impact of children's confidence/English/drama abilities...but no...nothing has any impact apparently.......is this shady or just me?

I'm not sure I would call it shady, but it is certainly odd. They must be doing these things for a reason. However, you simply need to talk about the way you believe the opportunity to access these things will benefit your son. That doesn't have to match the school's reasons for doing these things.

@prh47bridge

I'm not sure I would call it shady, but it is certainly odd. They must be doing these things for a reason. However, you simply need to talk about the way you believe the opportunity to access these things will benefit your son. That doesn't have to match the school's reasons for doing these things.

Thank you @prh47bridge, I think I just like data, I myself teach high school English and know that we are always looking for the correlation between things we offer and how that impacts the students learning and have data entry after data entry and while I know its not so rigorous in primary I was expecting...something? Data is always better evidence than just what you believe I suppose? but that might come from the endless department reviews we have had!

AS PRH says they must be doing these things for a reason and that reason can only be because they believe it benefits the pupils. This is therefore something that you can bring up at appeal. I do not believe either the school or the LA will stand up at the appeal hearing and say "well we do these things but they do not add value to the education of the pupils." They would simply not dare say that.

@admission

AS PRH says they must be doing these things for a reason and that reason can only be because they believe it benefits the pupils. This is therefore something that you can bring up at appeal. I do not believe either the school or the LA will stand up at the appeal hearing and say "well we do these things but they do not add value to the education of the pupils." They would simply not dare say that.

No they wouldn't dare in person but in email that is exactly what he has said LOL. It just strikes me as odd they have no physical evidence of how any of this impacts the children that they can give me. I know in my own school we always have some measure of impact eg. Shakespeare showcase, the children learn all about a play for a whole week then they create models, create art, learn a scene of a play to act out, write stories/essays ect that can then be marked and inputted into data to show the impact of the week on their english skills.

I'm going to include the email in our evidence and I'll just bring up the 'general impact' that seems to be there as none of the other schools offer these programmes so that's a strong reason for putting it in. Just seems odd to me but then clearly what do i know in this situation lol. Thank you again for all the advice guys.

Should say i'm not going to include where he said it had no impact as that would be detrimental to us, just the stuff where he gives general vague information about the impact on children LOL

It's to your advantage that they haven't given you specifics, really, because it's not about how it's impacting the children currently at the school, it is about how it would impact your child.

An example: They use a handwriting catch up programme. Your DD has large, untidy writing. You can say that this programme will improve your DD's handwriting. In reality, it may not, but it's a reasonable argument that it would be better than no programme.