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Primary education

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Low aspiration parents at primary school: what to do?

126 replies

Marina2021 · 13/06/2020 21:07

We live outside London but within commutable distance (due to house prices). When we bought here, it seemed a pleasant enough area - nothing spectacular about it but not rough or down at heel (although it is close to a deprived area). We now have children, the eldest in year 1 and the younger one about to start school. Up to now I've been reasonably satisfied, the eldest is bright and is learning well and I'm on friendly terms with two or three of the other parents, who are pleasant and kind.
Lock down has shown us a different face of the school however. Firstly the school has done virtually nothing to support us. By this I mean sending out twinkl sheets on the first day of term (that are supposed to last for weeks and are basically all the same type of activity). These are not marked and students are not asked to send any work in. Last week for the first time they introduced ten minute sessions on zoom during which they ask the students what they've been doing in a very general way. We've had to create our own resources and buy books and subscribe to different online educational services to create a curriculum. But what is really alarming is that the other parents all seem to think this is fine. When I raised the point that the school should be doing more, and that the three other schools in the area are doing much more according to friends (offering daily lesson plans, marking the work, daily emails) I got shouted down and told children should be able to enjoy their childhoods by doing such things as baking, walking in the woods and wrestling in mud. The last really made me laugh - I'm not against any of those things but is this really a serious replacement for losing four months of school? Actually when you think about it these attitudes are quite scary. Some of the parents are actually boasting about how their children are doing no work at all, saying things like 'my child has not done a worksheet since the first week of lockdown and she's happy'. We want our children to learn and to take school seriously. But what impact is having people around them that don't take education seriously going to have as they get older? They are really going to be the odd ones out and I'm concerned that they will begin to think a careless attitude to learning is fine, when this really goes against our values. This has begun to worry me. Any advice anyone?

OP posts:
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TweeterandtheMonkeyman · 14/06/2020 11:43

@TellMe5

I'm annoyed by the parents who boast that they did lots of learning "Jocasta read 500 books" and also by the ones making bloody lockdown memories aka baking cakes and playing computer games.

I'm also annoyed at the school for sending out pieces of stapled learnig that is dull dull dull dull.

I'm basically annoyed by it all. not helpful

Oh me too @TellMe5 😂

“Just bake with them” ... if I do anymore sodding baking I’ll be the size of a house , no more baking!!

GoldenZigZag · 14/06/2020 11:57

Don't move to the continent whatever you do, formal education doesn't start until 7 in many places. Whole countries of low aspiration parents - imagine!!

BragOff · 14/06/2020 11:59

BramwellBrown my kids prefer maths to baking.

They helped with baking a few times but now we are all caked out and they generally prefer to do maths, read or play.

The lack of structure was lovely for a couple of months but I'd worry not having any expectations of formal learning in the long run as I know I feel better in myself when I am productive and have some sort of routine.

Some parents at our primary do SFA and others post proudly what their darling have done to the class facebook page every day. It's horses for courses.

OP, you can't control your environment you can adapt or move or help you child cope. What are you most worried about?

myself2020 · 14/06/2020 12:41

@GoldenZigZag this is just plain simply not true. just because its not called school, it doesn’t mean its not formal education.
in my country, school starts at 6 or 7. Formal education starts at 3...

myself2020 · 14/06/2020 12:44

just to add what kids in some european countries learn BEFORE they start school at 7:

  • basic reading (a bit less than in the uk)
  • basic writing (print, not cursive)
  • counting to 100
  • addition and substraction of 1,2 and 5
  • basic division (divide in groups)
  • english as a second language
BatleyTownswomensGuild · 14/06/2020 13:14

Schools can't do right for doing wrong at the moment.

If teachers send loads of resources home they are accused of putting too much pressure on parents (many of whom are home working and have kids of multiple age groups to support.) If schools take a more flexible approach they are accused of not doing enough.

Agree with what many of the other folks on here have said. At year 1 level kids generally learn through play and activity not through worksheets. Trying to get my year 1 son to put pen to paper has been a running battle but we've enjoyed stories, potted plants, built a birds nest, been crabbing, gone train spotting etc. He misses his friends and teachers but has been very happy with much less structured learning.

SnuggyBuggy · 14/06/2020 13:23

It sounds like a lot of schools have had to take a one size fits all approach that is the best fit for their pupils.

TheFormerPorpentiaScamander · 14/06/2020 15:09

@ArtieFufkinPolymerRecords yes really. But I dont work in a school or have children at primary school so I dont know tons of primary parents. And the ones I've spoken to about home schooling have all expressed surprise that I'm still bothering because "we gave up on that ages ago and are learning through play/experiences instead" (not sure learning through play will get my year 10 through his GCSE's)

Phineyj · 14/06/2020 22:36

I'm not what to advise as we are in a dissimilar but equally annoying situation with a private primary setting loads of work and the other parents all claiming their DC does it all and more, while our Y2 does as little as she can possibly get away with! At the moment things are strange and up in the air, but it would not do any harm next year to consider the other local schools, especially if this disruption to education continues and your school continues to be an outlier.

Bear in mind though that people don't tell the truth. I did a confidential survey of class parents pre lockdown and a significant number reported their DC had trouble completing the homework. You would never know this from looking at the class WhatsApp and I got told off for bad attitude by some of the more competitive parents too! (my DC probably has some SEN which is why I wanted to benchmark a bit).

Annaonline · 15/06/2020 02:53

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Kokeshi123 · 15/06/2020 03:09

I'm with the OP. In the short run, most kids' mental health will benefit from having a routine and some useful schoolwork to do. In the medium run, mental health is going to be worse in September if they are faced with the shock of having to "catch up" with a lot of missed work, after having done sod all for months on end. In the long run, we risk creating a cohort that is permanently disadvantaged in terms of qualifications and jobs, which doesn't sound great either. We all know that kids in private schools and with more educationally switched-on parents will be making more progress and that gaps are going to result from this.

OP, if moving schools is not an option, I'd start taking the approach that making sure my kids' education is on track is going to have to be my responsibility. I'd get my own study materials and ignore the stupid Twinkl worksheets.

InTropicalTrumpsLand · 15/06/2020 03:19

@Annaonline

Hi I am a experienced online tutor! If your looking for a tutor for 11plus, sats for ages 7-11. Subjects covered: Maths, English, verbal reasoning and Non verbal. If you need any help please send me a message Thank you Anna
Confused
Pixxie7 · 15/06/2020 03:50

Parents can have all the aspirations for their children they want, most have. The reality is eventually your children have to develop their own aspirations. All you can do is to be there for them and support them, don’t miss out on this precious time with them by worrying what other people are doing.

earthyfire · 15/06/2020 03:53

My DD aged 10 has the same repetitive work loaded onto Teams every week. Her teacher hasn't given any feedback on the work. No interaction etc. We hardly receive any communication( unless a cut and paste government update about schools) from our Head Teacher who was due to leave this term so I suspect her priorities are elsewhere. Our class teacher has gone back to school to help teach the year 6 classes so we have zero online contact now. My daughter's motivation is at its all time low. She occasionally completes some maths and bits of English but I've given up myself now. Worksheet after worksheet for 12+ weeks is good for no one. I'd love to email the school, but they keep posting quotes on Facebook that we should be mindful of their mental well-being.

Kokeshi123 · 15/06/2020 04:24

learningspy.co.uk/reading/why-we-need-to-read-aloud/

All languages are not equal.

At the age of 9, a French child does not read as well as a 7yo Spanish child. It takes two additional years of instruction to learn to read English compared to French.

The most transparent (regular, or "easy to learn to read") orthography in Europe is Finnish. Italian, Estonian and Spanish are all very transparent as well. The result is that most kids can already read (to a greater or lesser extent) before they start school, because they "pick it up" from picture-book sharing, subtitles on TV and watching older siblings. The ones who haven't picked up literacy by school age, can be taught by the school within about two ticks.

You can't do this with English. English has the most opaque spelling system of any alphabetic writing system. It's a nightmare to learn to read and spell and learning to do this takes a few years. We need kids to be able to read fluently by about 7 or so so that they can access the curriculum, learn history and science and geography, read their books and worksheets, read what the teacher has written on the board, do word problems in maths so that the teacher can check whether they understand the actual mathematical concepts or not.

I don't recommend schools in English speaking countries waiting till kids are 7 until they start teaching them to read. A homeschooler who can shower a child with oral language to teach them history and science, and take them through through their maths word problems verbally, can get away with teaching reading later, but it's not going to work on a mass scale. I don't care what they do in reception, but in Year 1 (the OP's older child's age group), people around the child-parents and teachers-need to crack on and start teaching kids to read.

myself2020 · 15/06/2020 05:22

@kokeshi123 thank you!
Plus, as I said above, in countries where”school” starts at 6/7, kids learn am awful lot before. Like maths up to 100 etc, combined with languages that are more straightforward in terms of spelling.
If kindergarten isn’t compulsory, the gap between rich and poor kids at the start of primary school is enormous, and kids as a rule don’t catch up.
Most of my family are teachers or TA equivalents in a european country where “school” starts at 7, so I do know what I’m talking about. Even forrest kindergartens etc will teach reading, maths and english, just with natural ressources. But kids can read decently, write and do year 1 maths BEFORE they start school.

Purpleartichoke · 15/06/2020 05:29

Op, I agree with you. I’ve been very happy that the parents of my dd’s classmates all seem to value education.

Breadandroses1 · 15/06/2020 07:14

@koeshi123- yep, pre literacy work like that at kindergarten level is really important. The point is, I think, that can be done through play. A couple of the schools near me have extended eyfs into year 1- they are of course doing phonics and writing and maths- it's just a play based approach. Kids don't need to sit at a desk and do literacy drills, you can do it with whatever's around you. We did 5x table while planting seeds in rows of 5 for example.

The reason why pre school is so important is because lots of kids won't get that at home. Concern for those kids wasn't exactly the OP's point though- her point was that the other parents don't seem to want to do formal learning and therefore don't 'value' education. And she was surprised by that because she felt she'd gone some way to socially insulating herself.

I think she'd be more accurate to use schooling in the formal, current sense, rather than education which is a much broader term.

I'd also maintain that what you can do now, in an actual emergency, is very different from normal times. Usually I don't have to work a high pressure job while simultaneously home schooling and looking after a 3yo. It's circumstantial, not values based. There are parents at school who are SAH through choice or circumstances who can do more and quite a lot of furloughed too.

myself2020 · 15/06/2020 07:36

@breadandroses1 I wouldn’t think very highly of a school who doesn’t do it through play! But doing it through play requires a lot more work from the teacher/parent than though worksheets. its unlikely to happen (at least from what I’ve seen there is a lot of “learning through play” via netflix, youtube and fortnight...which only goes so far. even stuff line baking etc oy goes beyonf the absolute basics if ducators put efford in it - pouring a cake mix from the bag, stick it in the oven and then cover it in icing and sweets for example is quite limited. Weighing out lots if ingredients with doing the maths ( how heavy are they together? how much volume? how many smarties per cm2 ?) is educational, but requires effort.

Sleephead1 · 15/06/2020 19:58

It does sound like the school are not doing a very good job. My little boy is in year one and we get a video every day from his teacher explaining the work. Every day he gets literacy, maths and phonics/spelling then a mix of music, topic, pe, re, french, science and art. He gets 5 jobs a day and we do then in the morning then have the rest of the day to do whatever we like. I'm very lucky as only work 2 days a week and my husband is still off. It must be so hard to do if you are working at home aswell. Because I'm mostly off and to be honest my child is fairly happy to do the work we have managed it all and still have time to do all the other fun stuff aswell but obviously it's a different story if every piece of work is a struggle. I believe its important to at least do some work as it's such a long time to do nothing and I imagine it will be harder for children who have done nothing to settle back to school work. Most at my sins school seem to be doing it aswell. I would contact the school and discuss the lack of work they are providing as this s obviously going to be a longer term thing than perhaps they first thought in March.

peppersneezes000 · 15/06/2020 22:29

On our schools whatsapp group, many of the parents have been saying they are just "letting the kids be kids", ignoring the plan & making memories...
My eldest dd8 had a zoom catch up with 3 friends of said parents who all said they are being made to do all the work sent home from school & more!!!
Parents lie! I'd take it with a pinch of salt...

Marina2021 · 15/06/2020 22:47

Dear everyone,

thank you very very much to everyone who has taken the time to reply.

From reading through all your contributions, with many of you taking the time to provide considered and thoughtful responses, I felt obliged to reply. Firstly, to thank you all. And secondly, to chip in with a few observations.

I have never posted to any social media forum before, inviting people to comment on my particular position, and I have to say the experience is challenging - some replies are very direct, some are critical, and that can be quite chastening. But the directness of people's speech can also be refreshing. I am sure I wouldn't get such frankly expressed views face to face. To experience a dialogue stripped of the usual niceties that you find in conversation is challenging but also really interesting. A warning to anyone who hasn't tried it before: prepare to be a little shocked, a little intimidated, a little amused, and a little heartened! It's quite an experience.

Secondly, I found your responses fascinating. I can see that quite a number of assumptions were made from the fairly scant information I provided. I know that we all make assumptions, all the time, based on little information, to help us fill in the bigger picture and understand how to interpret what we're seeing and hearing. As with all our assumptions, some will be accurate and some not.

For example, I think the title of my post encouraged some to assume that I purposely tried to find a place to live that was not in a deprived area: to try and 'socially insulate' my children, as someone put it in a very colourful way. Actually, I bought this house ten years ago when I was returning from a period of working abroad, and was not even remotely thinking of children. I had only two criteria: I had to be able to commute to my job in central London and it had to have a fairly decent sized garden to accommodate my eight rescue dogs (that I had rescued while living abroad). And I had to find something quickly, because my huge kennelling costs were eating into my deposit. Those were my criteria. In fact I wouldn't have cared what sort of area the house was in because when you have eight dogs security is not a big concern! However, the area where I found the house that I needed happened to be in what looked like a completely average, run of the mill area, and for the first four years of living here I had very very little interaction with the local community. I didn't meet the neighbours as the house is set away. I didn't really know anyone apart from the dog sitter that I had to hire to look after the dogs while I was at work. If you're working long hours and have a long commute at each end of your workday it is surprising how little time you actually spend at home.

I would also like to comment on the classist assumptions that some drew from my post. Actually I commented on the area factually - it is an average area, close to a very deprived one (that's probably why I could actually afford to buy a house here at all). Some drew from this observation that I believe that deprived areas have parents who don't care about education. In fact, I come from an immigrant background myself and went to a school (when I could go - due to family issues I had an attendance record of about 30%) where there were a high number of children from families with very deprived backgrounds. Of course as a child I can't now know what the parents' attitudes to education were: but when I return to my home town I sometimes bump into my classmates, who now work in banks, as solicitors, and in other professions, and from what I recall most children did their work without complaining. I think the classist assumptions that some took from my post are more a reflection of our society: I sometimes think our class system is entrenched enough, decisive enough, to rival India's caste system. People judge you from the second you open your mouth (myself included, I can't escape the curse!) We're socialised into seeing everything though the lens of class and sadly that traps us into making assumptions that can be quite misleading.

In fact my personal experience, of living and working in countries where people are really, really poor, is that some of the most poor are some of the most motivated to enable their children to pursue formal education. That includes going hungry to be able to pay school fees and young kids walking for more than an hour each way to school to get to a classroom with 49 other children, having nothing to sit on but the floor once they get there.

One thing that has really stood out for me from this debate is how sharp the divide is around formal education in the UK, but perhaps elsewhere as well (those who come from other countries or who have relatives abroad might be able to share whether this is a common feature of other countries too). I can identify two camps. The first, kind of understands where I'm coming from - this camp worries about what this big gap in formal learning will mean for the future, and values things like providing children with a structure for their days, and trying to offer them formal opportunities to continue with their educational development (for want of a better way of expressing it). The other camp is quite hostile to formal education. There are some very negative perceptions of formal education here: I sense fear, loathing, rejection. It sort of culminates in the sentiments of the response of one person to my posting: 'I feel sorry for your children'. (I'm not trying to pick on that person or single them out: I am sure that that response came from the heart, a gut reaction to my post and was perfectly sincere). But it sort of encapsulates the view of formal education as punishment: an abuse, the stealing away of childhood happiness and fulfillment. This kind of attitude imagines that if a parent is interested in formal education then they can't be interested in their child having fun or learning through play: it's either one or the other and you can't be a parent that does both.

Obviously I don't share the views of the second camp. Firstly for me far from being a form of prison, education was my liberation. For me, education is freedom. Freedom to read, learn about new things, explore the world if not directly then through ideas. It's also meant freedom in the more prosaic sense of having a bit more control over what job I would end up in - since under our present system we are paid according to how many or few others can do our jobs and not by how valuable to society that job actually is. I struggle to identify with the views of this second camp because I don't associate such negativity with formal learning. And I am not even sure that this negativity is related to class. It seems to permeate every single part of society without direct regard to income level. I've met poor people who speak with sadness about their school experiences, people who are somewhere in the middle who accuse teachers of wanting to humiliate and berate them; people who are wealthy talking about how little they enjoyed school. Is this all related to bad personal experiences at school - a lasting sense of failure, unpleasant teachers? My teachers were mostly respectful and encouraging but maybe I was just lucky. For this sentiment to be so widespread in society it must be a symptom of something deeper. It's even become part of popular culture (Teacher! leave them kids alone!)

Finally, thank you, a heartfelt thank you to those who have made suggestions about finding resources, looking at other schools, or finding outside-of-school activities. I think all those elements are going to be part of my family's journey through the questions that the situation has raised for us. Just to be clear, I don't want more worksheets! I hate those Twinkl things and the website even more as I usually can't find what I am looking for and end up feeling overwhelmed when trying to make a selection. I really want some guidance on the topic choices and the techniques to use. But through lots of research, talking to parents whose kids are at nearby schools who are receiving these types of resources (and who are kind enough even to share with me log in details!!!) I think we will probably muddle through.

The unevenness in our schools provision should worry us all, I think. This can't stand us in good stead for the future. I think these developments have shown us the benefits of not dividing schools up into their own little atomised units but instead keeping a community of schools in an area that can pool resources, share ideas, and offer more even provision. Apparently last year there were around 106,000 medical vacancies in our NHS. I just cannot see how allowing some schools to slip so far behind others can in any way alleviate this situation in the future.

best wishes to all.

OP posts:
myself2020 · 16/06/2020 07:54

I do agree with you - immigrant background here as well. my grandparents could barely read ir write, my parents didn’t have enough food growing up (my mum suffers from side effects of malnutrition as a child). my parents got professional qualifications, i was the first university graduate in our family. It changes your view on education!
(mine are doing plenty of forrest exploration, baking etc, but also formal education. Thankfully our school is back fully now, but I made sure my year 2 did at least about 4 hours per weekday although it was hard on us as we both work fulltime. Our background does shape us a lot!

Mumto2two · 16/06/2020 08:29

Interesting thread OP, and I’m sorry you’ve had some fairly strong, bordering on hostile..responses! What you say makes perfect sense, different people have different mentalities towards this.
My eldest attended a state primary, in an affluent area, that had its fair share of (lower income) pockets. Having moved to the area many years ago, buoyed by the reputation of its good schools; I quickly came to realise once my own daughter was of school age, that the schools were very much socially divided, and anyone who could afford to, went private. Many years later, with my youngest at a private prep, the difference in what the schools are providing at home, is enormous. However, what I have also come to realise over the years, regardless of whether it is state or private, is that there are many patents in both camps,,who like to mention their own achievements a lot in conversation; as if it somehow confers an immediate guarantee of success on their own child; and the fact that they are so busy with their high powered jobs...little Johnny will just have to bake until Christmas. Which is probably ok at such young ages, and I really wouldn’t worry too much about that, but I totally understand your thoughts on this. It’s just a different attitude. There are a lot of kids with high flying career parents at our prep, who are struggling in bottom sets, ferried around by nannies almost young enough to be my granddaughter, propped up by expensive tutoring to help them secure their next school place, as they simply haven’t got the time to deal with that. It’s very much a hands off culture with some; It’s what they pay for after all, but it most certainly doesn’t always guarantee success, and it certainly isn’t confined to areas of affluence either.

simonisnotme · 18/06/2020 17:08

OP have a look at 'white rose maths' whiterosemaths.com/homelearning/
'the oak academy for ideas
www.thenational.academy/
first one is the one our eyfs are sort of following 2nd one is the government one