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Primary education

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5 year old reading well but struggling with phonics

167 replies

backtothegrindstone · 26/02/2020 20:22

Just been to parents evening and have been told that my year 1, 5 year old (late August born so very young for the year) has been moved into a booster group for kids struggling with phonics. I was shocked as his reading is decent and he's making really good progress. I've never noticed him having any issues and he sounds out words perfectly when we read at home. He's my 2nd child and if anything reads better than his older brother did at the same age- and his brother was always in the top set. I got the feeling that his teachers feel his reading is absolutely fine but that he's not reading the WAY they want him to read - he likes to read whole words rather than breaking them into bits. They want me to work with him on the phonics at home. So, should I be concerned and put a happy but rather tired little boy who's progressing well through extra work at home, or just ignore it all and assume that phonics just isn't his thing?

OP posts:
Feenie · 29/02/2020 19:34

That's incorrect,Pentium - 'tricky' words simply refer to words with a GPC that hasn't been taught yet.

From the Letters and Sounds guidance:
Even the core of high frequency words which are not transparently decodable using known grapheme–phoneme correspondences usually contain at least one GPC that is familiar. Rather than approach these words as though they were unique entities, it is advisable to start from what is known and register the ‘tricky bit’ in the word. Even the word yacht, often considered one of the most irregular of English words, has two of the three phonemes represented with regular graphemes''

Poor training has meant that lots of teachers (and, consequently, parents) think that tricky is a synonym for non-phonetic.

Norestformrz · 29/02/2020 19:47

Nat Oxford Reading Tree are Look and Say not phonics

Feenie · 29/02/2020 19:50

asked is just four phonemes /a//s/k//t/ with spelling the /t/ sound. Nothing tricky about it - just that that spelling just hasn't been taught yet.

their - two phonemes /th//air/, spelt , easy enough.

people - four phonemes, /p//ee//p/ul is unusual, the most common spelling for /ul/

PurpleDaisies · 29/02/2020 19:54

Tricky word only taught as such because they’re such common words that the kids need them to start reading and writing sentences that make sense. Waiting until they had a good enough grasp of phonics to get the unusual spelling of those phonemes would limit them to reading really boring stories that wouldn’t make sense.

Feenie · 29/02/2020 20:02

Pentium, I would really recommend doing this training:

phonicstrainingonline.com

It's created by Debbie Hepplewhite, it's university accredited and only £20 at the moment.

Ittakesallkindsofpeople · 29/02/2020 20:02

My nine year old learned phonics, grasped the concept and was reading fluently by the end of year 1. By the end of year 2, she was reading years ahead of her age.

Her little brother started school last September and is now learning phonics. DD doesn’t remember any of the sounds and is very confused when she hears her brother. She ‘helpfully’ tries to correct him when she hears him.

As a result, I’m not convinced about the long term effect of phonics at all.

Feenie · 29/02/2020 20:05

Gosh - how does she manage when meeting unfamiliar vocabulary, or technical words like the ones mrz posted?

Norestformrz · 29/02/2020 20:06

Even fluent adult readers use phonics even if we don't realise it.

Norestformrz · 29/02/2020 20:10

Ittakesall could she read the Harry Potter books fluently?

PurpleDaisies · 29/02/2020 20:13

As a result, I’m not convinced about the long term effect of phonics at all.

Has she forgotten how to read?

drspouse · 29/02/2020 20:22

My DS (8 but a bit behind) can tell my 5 year old all the letter sounds she's supposed to be reading (he's stopped telling her the answers!).
My DH who was taught using Look and Say but obviously worked out the phonics can't always tell DS the letter-sound combinations either because he can't remember or he has no conscious knowledge. Clearly he can read new technical terms by actually using his phonics. He just can't teach them using the technical terms and you wouldn't expect a child to be able to unless they've only just done it (like my DS)

Ittakesallkindsofpeople · 29/02/2020 20:23

Has she forgotten how to read?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Please reread my whole post and see if you can grasp a better understanding of it the second time around.

Shall I help by repeating she appears to have forgotten the phonic sounds.

PurpleDaisies · 29/02/2020 20:26

You were doubting the effectiveness of phonics teaching. The whole point it to read words automatically without thinking about which individual phonemes are present. Like changing gear while driving.

If she has not lost the ability to read, the phonics teaching was effective, even if she can no longer explicitly remember which written letter combinations represent which sounds.

Norestformrz · 29/02/2020 20:45

I know Feenie has asked already but you haven't answered how would she tackle words like cytoplasm, ribosome, vacuole, plasmid if she can't remember the relationship between spoken and written language.

Ittakesallkindsofpeople · 29/02/2020 20:48

The whole point it to read words automatically without thinking about which individual phonemes are present.

That makes sense. Apologies for my earlier post. I thought the sounds would stay in their memories forever. I was taken aback to realise she doesn’t seem to remember the individual sounds at all.

I went to school in the early 1980s. I’m trying to find out when phonics were introduced in Ireland. I took to reading but I have traumatic memories of classmates struggling and being humiliated when much older. That could be because we had to learn the Irish language from the age of four too and the two languages are miles apart eg ‘ch’ in Irish is sounds like ‘k’.

Evilcat · 29/02/2020 20:48

Then they worked out the phonics for themselves - if they hadn’t, they wouldn’t be able to read any new word. Ever. Without it being told and learnt as a whole.

This is not true. Phonics is great but it is acknowledged doesn’t work well for 5% of the population.

My adult daughter has auditory processing disorder and dyslexia - her phonological awareness at 17 was on the 2nd percentile. She is an avid reader (A* English A level) but uses strategies such analogy and a morphological approach for unfamiliar words.During her degree, she did have to use her phone to hear the pronunciation of some words or get a friend to say them aloud.

I assess for dyslexia and occasionally meet adults who describe a similar approach to reading unfamiliar words - the last one I can think of is now studying medicine.

Feenie · 01/03/2020 01:31

We have a really good record with dyslexic children in my school. See this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/3829026-Dyslexia-in-primary-schoolrecent thread:

Norestformrz · 01/03/2020 07:19

"Phonics is great but it is acknowledged doesn’t work well for 5% of the population. " actually the current thought is less than 1% will find phonics difficult

LondonGirl83 · 01/03/2020 07:55

Everyone uses phonics to read-- even adults without realising it. Brain imaging scans have determined pretty definitively this is true. Unless you are coming across a word you aren't familiar with, the process of phonics becomes so automatic, no one actually thinks they are decoding anymore once they are a fluent reader (but we all are based on brain imaging research!)

Children who teach themselves to read aren't really learning whole words. My husband taught himself to read before entering school and without his parents even realising he'd done so. I've also know a few children like this. These exceptionally bright children can tackle any new word they come across even at 3/4 because what they've actually done is taught themselves all the linguistic patterns that occur phonetically in the English language. They basically have both good memories and more importantly are also extremely good at pattern recognition / decoding which allows them to intuitively teach themselves all the rules of English phonics. The good memory part enables them memorise books they've heard read aloud and then match up the words to text. The pattern recognition skills allow them figure out decoding rule patterns. These kids read years and years in advance of their age in school. They'd never be able to explain phonics but its obvious its how they are reading very unfamiliar words when you read with them, as they slow down a bit and sound them out quickly (like adults do) based on their own understanding of the rules.

Learning high frequency words before learning the rules to decode them is part of the national curriculum and allows children to tackle more interesting texts from early on in their reading journeys. This isn't separate to a phonics based approach as far as I know but happy to be corrected if some schools don't do this.

OP, no offence but from your description, it doesn't sound like your son has taught himself phonics and can read anything you put in front of him. Therefore, ensuring he's not just guessing what words are but can actually decode digraphs and trigraphs when encountering new words seems to be what is needed as part of the booster sessions. Reinforcing this at home with him in a way that's not excessive should be possible and will ensure he learns to read properly which is key for his future reading comprehension particularly in technical subjects as others have indicated.

I 100% acknowledge that certain children may have quite significant SENs / learning differences that they've developed sophisticated coping mechanisms to tackle given their overall high intelligence.

But again, this doesn't sound like your son OP. At 5, just give him the extra support and see how it goes.

Evilcat · 01/03/2020 09:18

Phonics is great but it is acknowledged doesn’t work well for 5% of the population. "^ actually the current thought is less than 1% will find phonics difficult*

The prevalence of APD in the population is estimated to be between 2-5%. It is extremely difficult to get a diagnosis due to lack of awareness and very few centres that can diagnose, also complicated by the fact that a child with APD will pass a normal hearing test. Whether it is 1%, 2% or 5% is actually irrelevant- the fact is different strategies may be relevant for some children

Yeulisloveofmylife · 01/03/2020 09:35

LondonGirl83, your explanation is the best I ever read about this topic.

Evilcat · 01/03/2020 09:40

@Feenie. I am sure your school is wonderful but not all schools are- sadly many children with dyslexia and other literacy difficulties continue to be failed In schools across the country. Unfortunately, I also assess many children who have “passed” the phonics screening test, but when assessed by me in later primary/secondary actually have very poor phonic knowledge.

I am old enough to remember reading being taught through look and say and searchlights method (and how many children this failed). I am aware that systematic phonics is undeniably positive, but there are still problems with how it is delivered in some schools and there are still that small percentage who need something different.

Evilcat · 01/03/2020 10:34

@LondonGirl83. There is some recent early research which suggests that well compensated adult dyslexics have developed new and different neural pathways when compared to typical readers and to poorly compensated dyslexic readers.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3913493/

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101220163059.htm

Feenie · 01/03/2020 11:13

I agree - the bar for 'passing' the phonics check is actually worryingly low. We monitor children who scrape a pass very carefully.

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