Two school runs, not working!

[drspouse]

Last year our DCs' school which is 5 minutes walk from our house told us that DS (just started Y3) could no longer continue there. He has behavioural needs and they felt he wasn't learning.
While we felt that they could have done a lot more for him, and that they had made up their minds that he wasn't going to flourish, and he was NOT happy about moving school, we did not want him at a school that wasn't prepared to help him.
He's moved to a small village primary school 15 minutes' drive away and so far it's going well.
The school is oversubscribed and has no place for DD, and as he is working with younger children some of the time, it wouldn't be good for her to go there as she'd be in the same class as him some of the time anyway (she's in Y1, and he works in the combined Y1/Y2 class for part of the time).
But the school runs are a nightmare.

In the morning DD is booked into breakfast club every day. Probably 3 or 4 days a week DH WFH and we could in theory do two school runs. But so far we've tried to keep to the regular routine of DD up to breakfast club, DS walks with whoever is taking her, and then DS in the car to school.

DD isn't happy - she doesn't want to dash out the door early for breakfast, she wants a relaxed breakfast at home.
DS isn't happy - he doesn't want to walk up to school in the rain with DD when he doesn't even go there any more.
And we're not happy - we don't want the DCs unhappy!
This morning it took 20 minutes to get DD out of the door. DH suggested taking her later (so 1st breakfast at home, then 2nd breakfast at breakfast club) but if we put that off for 30 minutes and then she resists going out for 20 minutes, we will be late for DS school.

End of the day is not much better - DD in theory gets out 20 minutes before DS so we can take her home and then pick him up - but DH who has mainly done these days reports that the let out time is so variable that he's going to be late sooner or later, and it's a massive rush.
So we're putting one or other of them in after school clubs most days, which again DD isn't happy about - she just wants Mummy or Daddy to pick her up.
And I want to be able to talk to her friends' parents, arrange playdates etc. I have 3 families' numbers but they are all very busy/tired/non-responsive and poor DD keeps nagging me to go to X's house.

Previously someone suggested a CM but this doesn't solve the problem of DD, quite reasonably, wanting to have her breakfast at home like her brother/her parents/a normal person.

It also doesn't help with pickup as I don't think any of the CMs will be closer than school to our house - so she might as well just go to after school club! There was a lovely CM with a DC in DS' former class who actually walks past our house but she has closed her business.

It was suggested. We don't have room and we'd hate it.
DS can't stay in the house on his own. He's 7.
So he has to walk to breakfast club if I'm here on my own.
When DH goes in the office I'm on my own. He can't choose the days he goes in the office. We are going to ask but he says he doesn't think there's a precedent.

I have said all this but:
The reason for this situation is not choice. It is entirely the fault of DD current school. It's not a random outcome, they did it to DS and they are doing it to DD. It's affecting her education. She's tired, she never sees us, and she never does any reading or school work with us.

Every morning DD goes to breakfast club.
Every morning I then take DS to school. I either WFH or go to the office. This affects nothing about the school run.
Some days (between 0 and 5 a week) DH also WFH. He could take DD on the days he WFH but they are too unpredictable to rely on.
Two afternoons a week I pick up. I work half days those days.
I hoped I could pick up both DCs at home time but this is now not possible. So each DC is now in after school club 4 days a week which is a huge stretch for DS' behaviour, and tiring for DD.

DD has one single afternoon with me after school and even then I try not to leave it too late to get DS.

If I reduced my working to pick up more often, one DC would STILL have to be in after school club. But what with meetings, full day training etc, two afternoons out of the office is the limit they will accept. I could just work 3 full days (I did that when the DCs were both little) but that wouldn't help at all.

OP, just let go of the idea that you can do EVERYTHING you want. People have tried to help and nothing seems to work for you. Apparently there are no good solutions here or in fact any solutions. I wish you luck with figuring this out to the satisfaction of everyone involved.

By the way, both my children are in school and at childminder from 7:30am to 5pm. My older one is 5 and has SEN. Not ideal but that's just life. Thousands of families do it this way and trust me...it's fine! The kids learn to be resilient, to adapt, to try new things, to find new friends and generally to make the best of the situation they are in. In fact, they adjust much better and much quicker than their parents. Perhaps there is something you can take away from this.

It’s down to your DH to argue to set the precedent, then.

If changing your hours/pattern won’t help, he’ll have to change his.

You’re really cross with DD’s school, understandably. So perhaps working on getting DD into DS’s village school (even if the mixed classes are not ideal) is the best solution.

Good luck! I do feel for you.

I could just work 3 full days (I did that when the DCs were both little) but that wouldn't help at all

Well, it might. Three long days predictably gives you a better and less variable basis to work on, perhaps?

If you had school transport for DS, that would be another variable taken care of. On the 2 days you need to do both pickups (afterschool club for both the 3 days you work) you ask the school to release DD early via the office. They’re likely to be more amenable to that than 5 days a week. Your DH’s WFH pattern then not so important as he can fill in wherever.

But really if you want the full ‘being present’ for each child your DH needs to make a formal flexible working request, with a good business argument attached.

I do already work 3 full days plus two half days, though. The two extra mornings off don't give me anything else. I don't quite understand what they could change?

I've just messaged 2 childminders and one has just given up work and one has no space, only works 2 days and didn't know of any others that do the same school. Gah!

Gosh thanks lovewine for that spectacularly patronising statement. We got where we are today because DS wasn't resilient enough to cope with the original school. You don't know my DCs at all. DD deserves to be looked after, not pushed aside because her brother's needs are greater.

Could they both go to an altogether different school?

Honestly reading the thread it sounds like you might be upset and angry about what’s happened to your DS. This added complication is not something you’ve chosen and tbh what sort of school says they can’t deal with a Year 3 child. So I am sympathetic. However getting two kids to different schools is not that much of a big deal. I’d put both of them in breakfast and after school club and drive them both, dropping the nearer one on the way. I know you feel this will impact your DD negatively socially but plenty of working parents do this and their kids survive. Perhaps do the pick up once a week for each child? I would be pretty cross in your position that I was having to do this but it’s only really going to be s problem if you let it.

Gosh worried what amazing powers of insight!

barren We looked at 8 other schools and declined to look at a 9th because instead of inviting us to look round they rang the previous school to tell them we had rung to ask for a tour, then never rang us back.

Schools included the special schools where year 6s had pulled knives on their teachers and schools where when we asked about how they'd deal with DS behaviour and his problem with large crowded spaces said "This is our behaviour policy. All children follow this" and "This is the KS2 playground. All the children have to play here".
So no, they cannot both go to another school.

I think it would be worth putting dd's name down for the village school and trust them to work around the issues of class sharing.
I know you said there was a long waiting list, but people do move, change schools etc.
I think pp have covered every other possible solution, none of which will work for you/ are acceptable.
As pp have said, children do adapt.
I had 3 dc all in different places for a 3 years. The youngest had to go to a childminder who took her to and from nursery. The eldest was on school transport and I picked the middle one up myself on my way from work.
Then we collected eldest from the bus, youngest was collected from cm last. CM gave her a snack as we didn't get to her until 5 pm.
All dc were under 8.
Mornings went:
CM
School bus
School.
I could only work 10 till 3 to fit it all in. It was 3 years of just breaking even with my salary.
It is hard.

With respect OP, you are holding onto your anger at the school but it's not going to change the situation. It has happened. You now need to deal with the situation you are in.

Mornings work fine if DD goes to breakfast club so she is just going to have to deal with that. It's a long day but plenty of other children do similar, including my own much younger DCs.

What has changed between you thinking you could make both pickups and realising you can't? Is it just that DDs school are letting out late? Because that really should be able to be resolved with a quick chat with the school.

If you have 2 afternoons off, you can use them to have one day to pick up from each school and see DCs teachers/other parents etc. It's not ideal, but it's what lots of working parents have to do. Join class WhatsApp groups and sign up for school newsletters so you are kept in the loop. Approach DS school and ask how you can keep communication going when you can't be there in person.

I would put DS in the taxi - saves him the walk to his old school and dd gets a chilled morning. Then use your 2 afternoons to pick up DS (if you can't get school to let dd out in time to do both). Both do the other 3 days in afterschool club, if dh at home he picks up early, but from asc so they heve the consistency of always going, but when possible it isn't for long. Use email or home school contact book for DS. Give it time, it will pass! Get yourself gin and choc , as it sounds like you have had a horrid time!

It sounds to me that getting DD's school to release DD early/on time is the most realistically achievable change that would actually make a major difference. Then on the days when you can do pick-up (is it two days?), you can do both, so that leaves three (?) days for both in ASC.

A major improvement could also be achieved if DH got e.g. 2 fixed WFH days. I appreciate this is not very likely, but given the major beneficial impact it would have, he should definitely try.
On fixed WFH days, DH could do both pick-ups (given above has been achieved). Let's say he gets one fixed WFH day (more likely than two), ideally on one of your long days, so then you have pick-up sorted on three days of the week, leaving ASC (for both children) on only two.

The third thing that you can do that would help is the breakfast-at-home-then-join-breakfast-club-for-some-playtime thing for DD. I hear you that you are worried that you might then end up being late, if DD starts being difficult. But I think that if you do it every day, it is likely that DD eventually settles into the new routine. After all it isn't much different than it used to be. Just a bit earlier to school for some playing before lessons start. Yes, chances are you will occasionally be late. But that's life. I don't think (especially given your constraints) that you can factor in a daily extra '20 minutes in case DD throws a tantrum'.
And if you can combine this with point 1 and 2 from above, it won't mean such very long days either, most of the time.

What you don't get in this scenario is regular face-to-face communication with DD's school, and her friends' parents. You would always be rushing off to DS' school, at drop-off as well as at pick-up (where, in contrast, you'd have time to chat). But this I would accept as the lesser evil compared to putting DS into ASC for an extra day. And if DH has (at least) one fixed WFH day, then you can split drop-off on that day and catch up with the teacher at DD's school.

Day one: DH fixed WFH day
Split drop offs at regular school start time. Chance to catch up at drop off at DD's school. DH picks up both children at regular home time.
Day two & three: Your short days
Breakfast at home. Walk DD to school for some before-school playtime. Drive DS to school. You pick up both children at regular home time.
Day four & five:
Breakfast at home. Walk DD to school for some before-school playtime. Drive DS to school. Both children at ASC.

Meanwhile, I would strongly consider putting DD on waiting list for DS' school. Chances are you will want to move her sooner or later anyway. Putting her on the list when she really needs to leave her old school might mean you'd have missed a place that came up in the meantime. Let the new school find solutions for the 'shared classes' difficulty, if and when she does get a place there.

Does this sound like a possible way forward?

Just get them into breakfast clubs. I don't understand the need to have a cosy breakfast?!? Surely that's just a ball ache and an excuse for laziness and sluggishness in the morning? Just get them up, dressed and into breakfast club.

I think ultimately if you are both working parents sacrifices have to be made. My fiancé and I have no choice but to both work ft. Sadly this means I can't do any drop-offs or pick-ups for my youngest and have no "physical contact" so to speak with his primary school.

It's not ideal-I never get to attend any events taking place within the school day either-but my son understands I have to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table.

Tried making DD a snack this morning (a muffin) to encourage her to get dressed, she STILL took ages and complained she wanted toast and then spent half an hour running away from DS and screaming every time he went near her/looked at her funny/growled at her. Which he has a track record of finding HILARIOUS so carries on doing.

We set off half an hour after I wanted to and she cried all the way up the hill to school and had to be peeled off me. She was genuinely upset (I know when she's just moaning!) And DH was home so I didn't even have to take DS.

So that went well.

I would be advertising for some "adhoc" child care. At my DCs school there used to be regular ads for someone to just take a child to school on a regular basis, or collect and bring home and do a little "babysitting". sometimes parents did it to earn a little extra cash, other times other peoples Au Pairs did it if they had regular free time. (Sometimes it was Grandmas etc.)
They don't need all the qualifications of a child minder if the care takes place in your home- on the way to and from school.

Tried making DD a snack this morning (a muffin) to encourage her to get dressed, she STILL took ages and complained she wanted toast

What are your behaviour management techniques for DD? If she gets dressed quickly what happens? If she doesn't do as asked, what happens?

and then spent half an hour running away from DS and screaming every time he went near her/looked at her funny/growled at her. Which he has a track record of finding HILARIOUS so carries on doing.

Why was this allowed to go on so long, to the point your DD was upset? If DH was home, could he not have taken DS to another room so you could get DD ready and leave?

I don't understand why, if dh was home, one parent couldn't deal with one child each, in separate rooms.
If dd won't get dressed, why not just dress her?
I wouldn't be rewarding dd's bad behaviour with treats. It sounds as if your morning routine is chaotic enough without adding extra muffin making.
What is dh doing while all this is going on?

You could give your LA’s education welfare officer a call and ask for their advice. Ours has an advice line for parents.

I know in my school we wouldn’t agree to a child coming in late every day or leaving early because of problems with the school run.

Just out of interest, did your DS’s placement break down, resulting in an emergency annual review? You might have a chance of home to school transport if this was the case, though here you also have to be over 3 miles away to be eligible.

Previously someone suggested a CM but this doesn't solve the problem of DD, quite reasonably, wanting to have her breakfast at home like her brother/her parents/a normal person

You do realise thousands of normal people with jobs have to put their children in wraparound care every day

Is DS school the nearest that could meet his needs? If so, he should be getting transport provided.

@drspouse Sadly I don't think this is unusual for kids at different schools. I've been helping out a friend this week whose youngest child has been moved to a SEN school on similar grounds, and it is hard. The other child has to do a lot more clubs, and both children don't get the routine they want. We've looked at it every which way, but there's no way that they can. Both parents would have to be home all the time. For a few weeks I've been picking up the youngest and looking after him so that he doesn't have to be in a club and mum can get the elder child, but it's not a long term solution; my work will get annoyed soon enough!

I really think it's a case of ignoring whose fault this is and building a routine that they can get used to and gets everyone to where they need to be. Everyone will have to compromise and that sucks for you and DH let alone a 5 and 7 year old; but they will get into the swing of things. Start with one part at a time. If DD hates breakfast club, could DS go to school in a taxi (ideally funded...) so you can do breakfast with them both, wave him off and then take DD to school? Then both or just DD can go to after school club, pick DA up first, and everyone is home for Tea. They won't love it initially, but they'd get used to it. Reading and things may have to be at the weekend until both kids are used to the longer days and the new term.

It's not ideal but nothing about this is going to be, unless you search for another school for them both; but if you've looked at 8, you'd probably be looking at moving or going further afield. So for now, it's making the best of this so that DS gets the school he needs, and DD gets the school she wants.

You do have my sympathies

Do try asking for DD put to the front of the queue and let out first, and DS's school may well be ok to hold onto him for 5 mins. Why not try a couple of weeks with that for DD, explain the situation to DS's school and ask for their cooperation, and if it's not acceptable to be late, ask them to send him to ASC and you pick him up after 10/15 mins. Rather than trying to give each child one evening with you, swoop and get them both asap and just get them home. Appreciate it's an expensive way to do it if you get charged for a whole session of ASC for DS but you're paying 2 sessions of ASC on your days off anyway.

I'm assuming you can't change your two afternoons off to leaving at 2pm or whatever 3 days a week, and getting an extra pick up in that way, because it must have already been suggested and rejected.

Otherwise taxi for DS and find another way to communicate with his teachers. He should have a home school book for a start, and teachers are completely used to communicating with parents of children with SEND who come by taxi. Something has to give.

I do think consistency would help them both. Big visual chart on the wall of what happens each day of the week, ideally with photos. I know you say she wouldn't understand but we've used this with both DC (NT & autistic) from age 1, with photos. Once it's written "in stone" she should calm down and stop railing against you. If you think she doesn't understand, that's a good reason to make a chart and to replace ad hoc changes with certainty. Maybe use DH's ad hoc days for him to pick DS up and keep the contact with the teacher, and keep consistency for DD.

And I still don't understand why DD can't eat breakfast with her brother, if her brother sometimes comes to drop her off. I appreciate it's all taking ages if they are playing for half an hour but I think that is just a case of being on it and not letting them play until jobs are done. Maybe you getting up and sorting yourselves first, then concentrating solely on them, might help.

Something's got to give. I am sympathetic to the difficulties you've had with your son, but breakfast club all days and after school club 3ish days a week is what you'd expect in a family with parents working 4 and 5 days a week, isn't it? Any less is a bonus. Being 5 mins away from school has perhaps meant you've been able to do better than than in the past, but using wraparound both ends is more usual I would think. Doesn't make it fun for a 5 year old and doesn't make it fair but it is the norm for many families.

Most questions have been answered if you read the thread so I won't bother answering them.

And I still don't understand why DD can't eat breakfast with her brother, if her brother sometimes comes to drop her off.

Because she's too flipping slow both at dressing and at eating.
Muffins are not made in the morning surprisingly enough. She can eat them as she walks to school.

Why was this allowed to go on so long, to the point your DD was upset? If DH was home, could he not have taken DS to another room so you could get DD ready and leave?
"So long" i.e. long enough to get DD upset is about 5 seconds. Too short for DH to get from wherever he is, quite reasonably, getting dressed, to where DS is. When DD is in a mood, that's every morning, then she screams if he even looks at her, walks past her, or possibly just exists.

Oh and given there are 400 pupils in DD's school and only 30 breakfast club places - no, going to breakfast club every day and then after school club, is not either common or normal. I don't know if any of the other children go every day, maybe they do.