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Primary education

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Withdrawing DD from RE?

260 replies

Widget123 · 26/04/2019 12:36

I want to see if anyone’s had any experience withdrawing their children from PE? How did the school handle it etc.

My husband and I are both atheists. Our DD is 5 and is extremely interested in the universe and science. She’s now coming back from school very confused thinking that god created the world and asking if he made the Big Bang happen! This is too confusing for her, she naturally believes what her teachers tell her (why wouldn’t she) so naturally she’s taking RE as fact and it’s confusing the hell out of her.

I’m happy for her to learn about god in her own way in the future and find her own path but she’s much too young right now.

I’ve read we have the right to withdraw her from Re so simply want to see if people have had experiences with this.

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 30/04/2019 08:39

If this is the case, then sending one’s children to school where the values are different is simply the consequences of that choice, surely? I don’t want my child raised as a practicing Hebrew, so I wouldn’t send her to a Jewish school. If that was what was most important to me, then I would opt for a different school or if there are no options then I might take the effort to move. If it didn’t really bother me, then let them attend.

Oh good, the myth of ‘choice’ again.

Do people honestly believe this - is their bubble that effective?

hiddenmnetter · 30/04/2019 09:19

It’s not about a myth of choice- there used to exist places where people couldn’t send their children to catholic schools. They setup catholic schools. Same for Jewish. Same for Muslim. Those schools exist because people spent effort and money and time establishing schools because, precisely what is being complained about, was happening to them.

Why shouldn’t people setup an atheist school if that’s what they want? I imagine a fair few people would want to send their children there. Or home school in organised groups in local areas? I’m not saying it’s easy, but why not?

chipsandgin · 30/04/2019 09:32

My kids have had a variety of RE teachers from devoutly religious ‘open the book’ types to DS1’s incredibly open minded atheist ‘philosophy & ethics’ teacher who educated them about different belief systems and challenged them to think about why people might need/want to believe in them.

It’s hard to challenge/understand what you are objecting to if you aren’t informed & you can form a far stronger argument with some context & understanding. Also tolerance & a ‘live & let live’ attitude is far more constructive for society on the whole (again - if you understand the belief systems this is easier). Withdrawal from the opportunity to get this education surely isn’t the answer? I personally am atheist - I did speak to the head at DS1s primary & a group of us asked that the Christian teachings be taught with the caveat ‘some people’ or ‘I’ believe not ‘this happened/this is true’ & they listened. Also my kids both challenged any ‘fact’ they were told and asked a lot of questions - both have independently come to their own atheist conclusions...

HoHoHolittlepea · 30/04/2019 09:33

does your dd go to church school? my dd is 5 and has been taught about Dwaili, he traditional Chinese New year, Judaism, sikhism and Christian beliefs so far, I think that's really valuable to understand different people believe different things, and to Maintain curiosity and respect. my husband is an atheist so she gets plenty of chance to chat about that at home, although they have touched on it a little on school. The religion versus science debate is a bit patronising, yit makes me feel like Christians are all seen as flat earthers. I'm a Christian and I believe science is the study of God's work. Totally with you on the point that Philosophy could have more time on the curriculum though, and critical thinking.

Ceara · 30/04/2019 09:34

The focus of the thread is on C of E schools because they are a unique case: they represent a substantial proportion of (especially primary) schools in England - many of which, let's not forget, are 100%-state-maintained, local authority controlled VC schools - and the Church of England's national policy is that Church of England schools should be both distinctively Christian AND inclusive communities with a service function, providing education for all local children regardless of faith (or non-faith).

So on the one hand we have the inclusivity/service function messaging - eg the Statement issued by the House of Bishops on 15 January 2002:

"Historically, Church of England schools have been a service to the nation's children and this requires them to be inclusive in admissions, as most already are. We are committed to ensuring that all Church of England schools should seek to offer places to children of other faiths and of no faith in their local community."

Those of us thinking of sending our children to CofE schools, from other faiths or none, hear the inclusivity messaging - from the school, from other parents - and gain a general impression of Christianity expressed at school mostly through a set of moral values that everyone would endorse - and are reassured.

At the same time, in the words of the late Lord Runcie, when he was Archbishop of Canterbury, which have been adopted as policy/vision, church schools exist to:

"Nourish those of the faith;
Encourage those of other faiths;
Challenge those who have no faith." (my emphasis)

"Church of England schools have a duty to nurture children from Christian families in the Christian faith and to live and to share the Good News."

So when our children actually start school and all we hear is the faith nurture messaging and not so much on the inclusivity/sensitivity to other backgrounds, so we raise an eyebrow, it's suddenly "well what did you expect, it's a church school, why didn't you inform yourselves, suck it up" etc.

For example, when we apply, collective worship is said to be inclusive, recognising that not all present will be Christian, so the language used will be things like, "anyone who would like to join in with the prayer now, put your hands together...". When our children start and we pitch up to the nativity service, the vicar's actual words are, "Let's all pray together now. Children, pray with me now? Pray with me, children!". At the Easter service it's "we all want the children to take the Easter story into their hearts so they can live a good inner life". Etc. But, y'know, church school, suck it up, etc.

The Church of England's evidence to the House of Commons Select Committee on Education, illustrates the tightrope they walk and the inherent contradictions publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmeduski/58/3111706.htm

I struggle with how church schools can say they're walking the walk on inclusivity and serving the whole local community and being open to all faiths and none when their stated vision is to "challenge" absence of faith... As an atheist I'm respectful of Anglicans' beliefs, their right to worship and profess their faith - but that doesn't feel very reciprocal if they're setting to out to actively "challenge" non-religious world views (unlike other faiths, which they say they will "encourage")?

BubblesBuddy · 30/04/2019 09:56

I do think they are more inclusive than Jewish, Muslim or Catholic schools though. I don’t like parents going through hoops to get into them (or any schools) and believe they shouldn’t have separate admissions policies to be truly inclusive. The C of E VC schools around me don’t but the Aided schools do. The C of E doesn’t put money into the annual budget for their schools but they can fund building at Aided schools.

It can be difficult to avoid these schools and I think services in schools are not the same as the RE syllabus the OP was talking about. The RE syllabus is agreed with various faiths. I think the daily act of worship can be problematic but if you are in a minority about this, it’s difficult to get anything changed.

Runcie is a while ago now. I think some schools have moved to a different position but I find small rural schools can be more devout with a closer relationship to the local church and in small communities there is no choice for parents at all.

Finally having no religion isn’t a religion so inevitably it’s sidelined. It is up to you to indoctrinate your own children. The state isn’t going to do it!

Ceara · 30/04/2019 09:57

I don't think you'd ever find such a thing as an "atheist school" for the purpose of reinforcing atheist values taught by parents at home (one of which included being taught that God does not exist)

Atheists would be as appalled as people of faith by that kind of dogmatism!

"Atheism" is a personal position relative to the existence of God. Everyone makes up their own mind and has freedom of conscience to do so.

I think you mean secular schools? As are the norm in the state sector in a number of other countries. Which of course teach about religious faiths, history of religion, philosophy and ethics and so forth, in a neutral way.

BertrandRussell · 30/04/2019 10:00

“Why shouldn’t people setup an atheist school if that’s what they want? I imagine a fair few people would want to send their children there. Or home school in organised groups in local areas? I’m not saying it’s easy, but why not?”

Because most people don’t have the time, money or knowledge.

Why should state schools paid for by tax funds only cater for people of faith? Why can’t people of faith set up theirs own schools or home school?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 30/04/2019 10:02

Why shouldn’t people setup an atheist school if that’s what they want? I imagine a fair few people would want to send their children there. Or home school in organised groups in local areas? I’m not saying it’s easy, but why not?

Because atheists don't have the same finances and infrastructure as established churches.

Education should be entirely secular and the state should ensure the access of each and every child to a secular school.

BertrandRussell · 30/04/2019 10:03

Sorry. Forgot to say that I don’t think many people would want an “atheist” school. I think many people would want a secular school. Sadly, many people think the already exist.

Ceara · 30/04/2019 10:09

I think it's been suggested upthread already, the OP will probably need to look at collective worship as well as RE, and engage with the school to understand what's going on in both - the OP is focussing on the RE but actually it may be that the "confusion" she's worried about is mainly coming out of collective worship (which some schools will sometimes plan to reflect the same theme as RE, and develop it further) but the RE lessons themselves are being neutrally and sensitively handled in her particular school.

I can't indoctrinate my child. It would go against every principle to push a particular view on him and ask him to accept it uncritically.

JassyRadlett · 30/04/2019 10:11

It’s not about a myth of choice- there used to exist places where people couldn’t send their children to catholic schools. They setup catholic schools. Same for Jewish. Same for Muslim. Those schools exist because people spent effort and money and time establishing schools because, precisely what is being complained about, was happening to them.

I’m perfectly happy for those schools to exist and prioritise children of that faith as long as they’re not spending general taxation funds on it. State provision of a universal service should be universal, not providing greater access for or provision biased towards certain groups.

Why shouldn’t people setup an atheist school if that’s what they want? I imagine a fair few people would want to send their children there. Or home school in organised groups in local areas? I’m not saying it’s easy, but why not?

Apart from the other good reasons mentioned: it is not currently legal. Under current legislation, you may not set up a secular school. You may set up a faith school, but not one that is specifically secular (or an atheist school, if you were into that quite bizarre concept).

But yes, it’s the people of faith who are discriminated against in education. Hmm

JassyRadlett · 30/04/2019 10:16

Yes, but if someone started an atheist school that existed specifically for the purpose of reinforcing atheist values taught by parents at home (one of which included being taught that God does not exist), the attendance at that school by religious would be their hard luck.

I missed this nonsense. What on earth are ‘atheist values’?

Do you actually know what atheism is?

Ceara · 30/04/2019 10:19

The RE syllabus is agreed with various faiths - indeed, but the CofE is given 25% of the voting positions on the local authority advisory councils which set the syllabus, whereas all other faiths only get 25% between them (the other 50% being teachers and councillors). And Christianity gets the lion's share of the teaching time, by law. I wish it was more balanced but accept that's what the law says at the moment. The syllabus should at least be taught neutrally, and followed (in letter and spirit) by VC church schools. But when you hear (VC) church schools talking in terms of their RE teaching being an important part of their distinctive Christian flavour, it does sit a bit oddly.

BertrandRussell · 30/04/2019 10:23

Can someone tell me what “atheist values” are?

SheSaidNoFuckThat · 30/04/2019 10:25

None of my DC do RE, I just had to put it in writing to the school. At Primary age they just do a bit if English or Maths for that lesson

Tunnockswafer · 30/04/2019 10:27

I do think if you’re at a school that has a decent approach to RE/RS it’s a shame if you don’t let your dc attend. Ours learn about human rights as well as different religions and have had some philosophy too.

downcasteyes · 30/04/2019 10:29

I am an athetist, but I have very little time for militant atheists. I see it as uncultured.

RE is not just about Christianity. I did it years and years ago and it was very much an introduction to all the major world faiths. It's incredibly important to know and understand the main tenets of these belief systems, because they are important to millions of people around the world. It is literally not possible to understand current political conflicts in certain places without understanding something about religious conflicts. It's also important to have a working knowledge of the Bible if you are in any way interested in European philosophy, history, English literature, art history etc. It's a fundamental part of being a well-rounded, educated human being.

Behind a lot of militant atheism, I sense a fear of encountering otherness and a model of reading that treats the human being rather like an uncritical sponge who just absorbs whatever is presented to them. Those are terrible ideas when it comes to education. Children should be encouraged to encounter things critically, to ask questions, to be genuinely interested in a world that differs from their own upbringing, mores, and assumptions, and to evaluate any claims presented to them on their own merits.

I am currently working on Judaic philosophy (for an academic book) and learning a lot about Judaism in the process. I am not in any way converted by what I read, but I nonetheless find a wealth of useful and profound ideas and resources in the concepts presented by these thinkers. In music, I enjoy many types of classical, jazz, and blues that have strong religious inflections. I wouldn't be able to enjoy half the great art in Italy without some knowledge of Christian iconography through the ages. It's just being educated.

Ceara · 30/04/2019 10:30

The lack of understanding on this thread of what atheism is, perfectly illustrates why the "RE" syllabus does desperately need to include non-religious worldviews - for better mutual understanding.

Fazackerley · 30/04/2019 10:36

Dh and I are both atheists and two of our dcs did RS a level and the other two love it. Interest in other peoples philosophy and belief systems is a sign of a curious mind imo

Ceara · 30/04/2019 10:43

It's a fundamental part of being a well-rounded, educated human being.

Wholeheartedly agree with this.

Children should be encouraged to encounter things critically, to ask questions, to be genuinely interested in a world that differs from their own upbringing, mores, and assumptions, and to evaluate any claims presented to them on their own merits.

And this.

Wish that's how DS was being taught.

hiddenmnetter · 30/04/2019 10:46

I’m perfectly happy for those schools to exist and prioritise children of that faith as long as they’re not spending general taxation funds on it. State provision of a universal service should be universal, not providing greater access for or provision biased towards certain groups.

Why shouldn’t general taxation fund those schools? Do the parents of children attending those schools not pay tax? I imagine if the government stopped funding religious schools entirely, but then offered parents the option to not pay income tax/VAT etc proportionally to what gets spent per child that they have in school I imagine they probably wouldn’t care because it would essentially come out the same.

Why should state schools paid for by tax funds only cater for people of faith? Why can’t people of faith set up theirs own schools or home school?

They did. A long time ago- the legacy is those schools that have survived. Universal state education is a relatively modern thing. Most universities began as seminaries for training priests (oxford university began as a CofE seminary I believe). Mass education was initiated by the Jesuits in the 16/17th century for the purpose of educating young Catholics.

Apart from the other good reasons mentioned: it is not currently legal. Under current legislation, you may not set up a secular school. You may set up a faith school, but not one that is specifically secular (or an atheist school, if you were into that quite bizarre concept).

Prof Dawkins has proposed such a concept and Michael Gove (then education secretary 2010) said that is precisely what was intended with the introduction of free schools. If people want to set that up, they may.

Is it unfair that religious schools have a kind of default historical advantage? It’s simply to do with the fact that atheism is a relatively new thing, and therefore has something of a historical disadvantage.

Because atheists don't have the same finances and infrastructure as established churches.

Yes but once again most schools weren’t financed by massive church infrastructure. Most local schools began locally with local input and local impetus. You couldn’t move to an area as a priest in the 17th or 18th century and go to the local bank and say “the Vatican said I could have some money for a school, can I withdraw that please?”. It didn’t and has never worked that way. There are people all throughout history who have given up their lives for the purpose of teaching in schools. That wasn’t funded by infrastructure. That was people moved by and motivates to meet the need of educating children. Whole orders of teaching nuns, brothers, priests. Thousands of people who thought it was necessary and did what they thought was necessary. They weren’t getting monthly funds from the Vatican, they moved to an area with a community that locally supported them.

Once again, if people want a secular school, why not? Dawkins seems to suggest it should be called a free thinking school with an emphasis on logic, critical thinking and evidence. If that is what people want, then it can happen.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 30/04/2019 10:51

Behind a lot of militant atheism, I sense a fear of encountering otherness and a model of reading that treats the human being rather like an uncritical sponge who just absorbs whatever is presented to them. Those are terrible ideas when it comes to education. Children should be encouraged to encounter things critically, to ask questions, to be genuinely interested in a world that differs from their own upbringing, mores, and assumptions, and to evaluate any claims presented to them on their own merits

Agree, except where you refer to militant atheists. I don't see any on this thread. What I do see is a bunch of posters arguing that evangelical RE is wrong and that schooling should be secular. All of the above can be considered in a neutral sense in a social studies classroom.

downcasteyes · 30/04/2019 10:51

"Wish that's how DS was being taught"

With all due respect, that's literally the most important job of a parent after providing unconditional love.

BertrandRussell · 30/04/2019 10:52

What is “militant atheism”?
What are “atheist values”?