Withdrawing DD from RE?

[Widget123]

I want to see if anyone’s had any experience withdrawing their children from PE? How did the school handle it etc.

My husband and I are both atheists. Our DD is 5 and is extremely interested in the universe and science. She’s now coming back from school very confused thinking that god created the world and asking if he made the Big Bang happen! This is too confusing for her, she naturally believes what her teachers tell her (why wouldn’t she) so naturally she’s taking RE as fact and it’s confusing the hell out of her.

I’m happy for her to learn about god in her own way in the future and find her own path but she’s much too young right now.

I’ve read we have the right to withdraw her from Re so simply want to see if people have had experiences with this.

[DippyAvocado]

DD, not DAD!

[SirBobblyofSock]

I hear you OP. My six year old is at our local village school which also happens to be very full-on C of E and teaches Christianity as fact (and sadly very little of other religions). However, we are atheists and provide balance at home and I figure that she'll work it out eventually (even if she's not yet at a stage where she feels okay questioning what a teacher tells her). I think she'd feel uncomfortable/self conscious if she was pulled out of RE etc so for now we are going with it. If other kids at your school don't participate in RE then maybe go for it, but if it would be just your child then it might not be the best thing for them.

[Tunnockswafer]

You say “Christians are people who believe in God, and they believe God made the Big Bang happen. We don’t believe in God, and we think that..” yada yada.
Unless in a faith school, there’s no reason for RE to be taught in a believers perspective (and if you are in a faith school, what were you thinking of?)

[redcarbluecar]

Find out what they’re teaching in RE. I’d be surprised (and concerned) if your DD is being indoctrinated into accepting a particular set of Christian beliefs. I think it’s important for young people to learn about diverse groups and beliefs. There are other contexts where your child will encounter unquestioning religious beliefs, and just maybe early religious education will provide her with a few critical tools.
I also think it might be a bit of a slippery slope if schools allow children to miss particular lessons because of clashes with parental beliefs. Would it be ok for the child of creationists to miss some science lessons, for example?

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

I am surprised she’s being taught creationism as fact. - is she at a church school?

At DD’s school in KS1 they did a term each in all the major religions. I think it’s important for children to understand faiths as they inform so much of our culture and history, and of course are important to many people, even if not to you.

[Ceara]

OP, I'm an atheist parent of a 5 year old at a C of E primary school. I understand where you're coming from. We haven't found it easy this year.

I am very reluctant personally to consider withdrawing DS from either collective worship or RE lessons. We live in England but my father's family is from NI and my DM is Scottish so like the previous poster, awareness of the reality of sectarianism possibly colours my view. Knowledge and tolerance for different world views matters a lot to me and withdrawing DS from worship or RE would feel like a step in the opposite direction, rather than modelling the kind of tolerance and respect for different views that I'd want him to grow up with.

However - he was confused, disturbed and upset last term around the Easter story, to the point of screaming nightmares. We feel between a rock and a hard place. I wish RE was taught differently, and there wasn't collective worship. But we're trying to work with the school to find a way through it that doesn't involve withdrawing him. He also doesn't want to be singled out from his peers and collective worship is part of the school's communal life; and I think withdrawal would be made as un-fun as possible, pour encourager les autres.

My advice is talk to the school and inform yourself. We have observed worship and RE (though you have to allow for the observer effect being in play) and have been provided with the lesson plan and collective worship plan for the term, something we will continue to ask for going forward. That way we can be more prepared for the questions and how we'll deal with them. We are just embracing the confusion and the messy diversity of views - being honest with DS that grown ups believe different things and that's OK. DH is pagan, and my DM who he is close to is Church of Scotland, and I'm an atheist, which I guess helps as we already have to cross the bridge at home of the grown-ups having different world views and therefore not being infallibly "right" but respecting each other's right to our opinions. We are very deliberately grabbing every opportunity to talk about other religions at home, linking to what they're doing in RE - so for example, if they're doing "special things" with reference to Christianity, we take the conversation at home onto things that are special to people of other faiths who we know, or what specialness means to me as a non-believer. I am also reading him lots of myths and legends - you can get great children's versions - and we've got the Usborne "Lift the Flaps" books of World Religions. I also recommend a visit (or another visit!) to the Natural History Museum - the earth gallery has a display about the myths that developed to explain earthquakes before people had the science to understand, and I was so grateful we'd visited last summer because when they talked about Creation at school DS was able to place it as "the best explanation people had at the time, before they knew the science" and a myth, and wasn't confused by the disjunct between the Creation story and his knowledge of evolution and geological time. Basically, "chuck information at it" is my solution. Obviously none of that helps when the vicar gets overly graphic in school assembly about crucifixion and your child is waking at 3 am screaming and sobbing inconsolably, but that's it's own issue.

Your local authority will have a "locally agreed syllabus" for RE on its website, which all community schools, Voluntary Controlled church schools and academies which were formerly VC schools have to follow. Your school should publish their RE topic for each term on their website but on a note of caution, our school's website is out of date. The Church of England has recently introduced a more, um, theologically robust way of teaching the Christianity part of RE in its schools called "Understanding Christianity" and DS's school has switched over this year, but its website hasn't caught up yet so their published programme for RE is less hardcore. Best to ask for the lesson plans so you have a clearer picture, anyway.

The RE online website has lots of information about the different approaches to RE, and "why do RE?" which might be an interesting read. www.reonline.org.uk/knowing/why-re/ www.reonline.org.uk/knowing/how-re/ At a C of E or a non-faith school, Christianity won't be being taught as fact, it will be "Christians believe that...". However, in the real world, collective worship is happening in parallel. led by believers, and the children know from that that the teachers believe the truth of the material in RE, so I'm not sure what the "Christians believe" line is really worth.

The National Secular Society has information on its website about religion and worship in schools, and the right to withdraw, which is very helpful and informative. www.secularism.org.uk/education/

If it's any consolation, DS was attracted to the religious stuff in the first term, but the school's treatment of the Easter story has created an instant atheist (to the point that we're actually a bit worried how negative he's become about religion!).

[spanieleyes]

However, in the real world, collective worship is happening in parallel. led by believers, and the children know from that that the teachers believe the truth of the material in RE, so I'm not sure what the "Christians believe" line is really worth.

Why would you assume the teachers believe the truth of the material in RE? Even in a catholic or Cof E school you will have a range of believers and non believers-indeed our RE co-ordinator is an avowed atheist!

[Ceara]

Because the teacher is a believer. As is the Head. As a C of E school they are allowed to mandate that 20% of the staff including senior leaders are of the faith. Fully appreciate that the other 75% may be of other faiths, or none. I was reflecting the situation at DS's school but poorly worded so apologise that it might have been read as a generalisation.

[Ceara]

*80% - doh! Need more coffee :-)

[thirdfiddle]

I would start by finding out what's RE and what's assemblies/acts of worship. RE should be where they learn about Christianity and other religions, which should help her understand the difference between what beliefs come from certain religions and which are generally accepted science.

The thing that can more often be confusingly presented is the acts of worship, which have to be "broadly Christian in nature", some are more so than others. While they should be presented as "some people believe"/"if you want to join in a prayer put your hands together now" kind of thing my experience in the not many assemblies I've had cause to sit through is that it quickly slips.

I haven't withdrawn them from RS, but did withdraw them from acts of worship until I thought they had had enough RS (at school and from chatting about stuff at home) to tell belief from material reality. DS doesn't actually believe but now prefers to sit through assemblies anyway. DD they failed to actually withdraw her when asked, but she was a lot more critical thinking than DS was at reception age anyway so we didn't initially insist. She started strongly objecting to acts of worship in Y2 so we made more fuss and she is now withdrawn. Which she loves, she gets to go and read or do colouring with the other withdrawn kids instead of sitting through the more tedious (to her) assemblies.

[MarchingFrogs]

At our (state, not faith) primary, the only parents who withdrew their DC from anything to do with religion were the Jehovah's Witnesses. The rest of us made ours sit through the 'allegorical' assemblies, because learning to deal with tedium is an important life skill. And stay put for RE, because you never know, it might help explain the really bizarre ideas that some folk have about the way the world works. Unlike our JW friends, we never had the slightest worry that our DC would be 'converted' to the school's version of any religion.

DD did profess herself an adherent of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for a while , though, which was okay with us, but I think that was down to private research...

[Mygoodlygodlingtons]

I don't think you can withdraw a child from RE, in the same way as you can't withdraw them from geography! It is part of the curriculum.

FWIW, we are atheists and both children went to religious schools. They are now over 18 and also atheists.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

DD did profess herself an adherent of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for a while , though, which was okay with us, but I think that was down to private research...

Can you imagine the possibilities for craft in the lesson if the FSM really was taught in RE? :)

[Nameusernameuser]

Religious education is just that, education. And we need to know about lots of faiths now more than ever.

[zippey]

I hate God and ideas of God as much as the next person but still don’t see the harm in RE. As much as science is important, it’s also important to know what people believe.

You can frame it so you tell her that people believe different things. Some even believe that the earth is flat.

And if she believes God created the Big Bang, well, she will grow out of it in due course as she will Santa and the tooth fairy.

[donquixotedelamancha]

My 5 to is going through a similar phase of believing all the religious stuff she is told.

I'm not worried- she is incredibly inquiring and will work it out eventually.

Initially I wanted to give her unvarnished reality, but I've decided that myths like Father Christmas and heaven are good for her for now.

I don't think this is worth withdrawing your child for.

[thirdfiddle]

learning to deal with tedium is an important life skill.

Sadly DD gets plenty of tedium practice in normal lessons.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Or maybe we just need more cross-cultural understanding where faith is only a part of what we learn about different cultures - and maybe this needs to be in the social studies curriculum and not RE.

[BikeRunSki]

DH and I are also atheist, but the dc go to a CoE school (largely because it is across the road and is Outstanding). I find it very useful that that have RE at school. It means that they can learn about world religions, but in a compartmentalised manner - ie: they can learn about it at school, attend termly church services, visit the mosque, synagogue and gurdwara -but it’s not something we do at home. DS went through a bit of a religious phase in Y1, but only in as much as he can be enthusiastic about many new things. DH and I have no pretences that we can sheltered then from religion forever, and this approach seems to be working well. DS is now Y5/age 10 abd is putting bits of knowledge together in his head, he has a vast knowledge and understanding of history and the role religion has played. Religion is not really a subject to avoid, although I can see why you may wish to withdraw your child from daily worship.

[Coronapop]

Perhaps you should arrange to talk to the teacher or the HT and ask to see the RE scheme of work to get the full picture of what she will be taught and to raise the question of why she is apparently being taught belief in God as fact. You could then make the decision about withdrawing her. My own DCs experienced this from both primary and secondary RE teachers who were believing Christians, but they formed their own opinions.

[threesecrets]

I think you are making too much of a big deal of this. My children aren't Muslim or Hindu but they will learn about different faiths in RE and they will learn tolerance of others. You are sending the wrong message if you withdraw your child.

[megletthesecond]

RE is learning about world religions. Pulling her out won't help her at all.

[MrsKrabbapple]

I've worked in a school where a group of parents wanted to withdraw their dc from RE. What was assumed about them was that they were bit old racists who didn't want their dc to know anything about how other people might live their lives.


They weren't allowed to withdraw them in the end as there was nowhere for them to withdraw to and no one to look after them.

[Trinpy]

I would ask the teacher what they'll be covering in RE so you can support their learning at home. My 5 year old believes everything he learns in RE is fact so we have conversations about it at home and I explain how some people believe in it and some people believe different things and it's up to him to decide what he believes. I try not to talk about my own beliefs unless he asks me directly. He's come to his own conclusions that the Easter story is a load of rubbish but the Easter bunny is 100% real. If Jesus brought him chocolate once a year his views would probably change .

[MsLayla]

Maybe you should speak to the school about the way it's being taught. As if it's fact, rather than some people's belief.