Can an average child in YR2 go on to be a high achiever?

[User54546767]

DD is at a good primary, which achieves well above average across the board in the annual stats.

DD has met age related expectations in all her reports so far, and has just started year 2. She is bringing home White book band books (level 10) which are a stretch, but she can systematically read them. Purple band (level 8) she reads fluently. She writes well creatively, although not very long pieces, but still spells phonetically mostly. Maths took a while to click but now addition and a few tables are secure. She still can't tell the time.

She has excellent fine motor skills, an really impressive ability to construct and fix things, and a noticeable flair for non-verbal reasoning (i.e. recalling recurring patterns etc.). Her social skills are also excellent. She seems generally bright to us and all around her - until she started school she was ahead in all her milestones, and in the initial screening at school slightly above average in everything.

However for the last two years she has been set with the bottom third of the class much of the time (I assume there are some children in separate remedial groups which I'm not aware of) or at best the middle group. Her teachers have consistently said she is 'doing fine' and 'where she needs to be', but their impression and expectations of her in class simply doesn't reflect the child we know. I feel we're being fobbed off with the subtext of 'she's not that bright', when actually something isn't working and she's not meeting her potential.

I'm concerned that I'm going to look like I just have an over inflated idea of her abilities - and maybe I do! - but does school just 'click' a bit later for some children? Can she go from being average to being a high achiever later on in the years? The school obviously has the potential to get children achieving at those higher levels but I can't work out why it's not happening for DD.

Any insights would be helpful. And please be kind, I might sound like a bit of a dick worrying about this, but I just want DD to have the best chance in life she can.

I think that the cohort you describe to be unusually high attaining are just standard high attaining. That is not to say that your child is not bright ut she doesn't sounds super bright to me.

As long as she is keeping pace she will no doubt be fine. One of the major predictors of academic success is educated and motivated parents which suggests all will be fine.

Not sure if this will help you at all but DS struggled to write his own name correctly at that age. His writing is still scruffy, but legible, but he can explain to me how electricity is generated, and stumped a couple of university physicists with his questions about particle physics at a kids' science fair. When he was 8. He can beat me at chess. As they get older and exposed to more things you start to see what they are interested in.

Also, I have worked with people who were very successful career-wise but left school with no qualifications/were streamed into vocational, and some people I went to school with who were average academically have gone into their chosen line of work and are intimidatingly successful.

ds was barely reading in year 2, and i was so worried, school said he was fine, but he really wasn't.
He got to year 3, and hit aged 7, and suddenly loads clicked into place and he flew.

Developmentally there is a change around 7, which is why in the old days infant schools were more practical based and juniors more academic, and why in many countries schools don't start book learning until 7.

So I would say, yes, it is still entirely possible that she will start to fly.

Equally, as I have helped out in class for years and as an ex teacher, I would say you do spot kids at this age where their verbal skills and reading/writing skills seem to be mismatched, and I am never surprised when later they are diagnosed with dyslexia, or some other issue

It sounds like she is in a high achieving class. At our village school she would be top of the class.
A friend of ours their DS goes to a high achieving oustanding primary school in London in an affluent subsurb. He is above national average in reading but in set 4/5 in his school! he is demoralised by this and understands that he is 'thick'. He isnt really but he is surrounded by tiger mums who are coaching their own kids. Our friend went part-time so she could do the school run but actually she meant tutor her own child! They do about 1 hour per day maths, writing, reading etc.

Our DS1 was near the top of his class in our village primary but I didnt feel he was being challenged and he often said he was bored. We have moved him to a prep school and I feel they are better at tailoring the lesson to the children (the class is smaller and the ability range is more narrow). He made massive progress in the 1st 3 weeks in writing.

OP it sounds to me that the problem is not that your DD is a late starter or behind or some such, but rather that she is quite academically able but isn't showing her ability at school.

This happens a lot IMO and absolutely, for a variety of reasons, and can and does change. It might only take a new teacher who 'gets' her, or the standard way in which school topics change so e.g. KS1 maths is basically not 'maths' but 'arithmetics' and as such very different to secondary maths. A child who is average in arithmetics can turn into a high flyer in maths. Or with age/maturity, your child's 'school fit' might improve (rather than her abilities) so she is more able to conform to the school way of showing her abilities.
So this wouldn't require you to do anything.

However as you say, being in bottom sets and the teacher having low expectations, can destroy confidence and motivation. So anything you can do that helps to strengthen motivation and confidence can only be a good thing.

I would suggest play the long game. Focus on making things enjoyable, rather than on drilling. In the short term, drilling will have very measurable effects; but in the long term, if she learns to see the fun of manipulating numbers and enjoying a good book and finding something out about how something works, it will take her much further.

Millybingbong I don't think she is "super bright" (we have a couple of those in the extended family - a natural ability to pick up things effortlessly, always working years ahead), but I do think she is bright and for some reason it's not being seen. She's being grouped with what I would call the lower-attaining children.

For those who have children who have blossomed later in primary, or who have experience as teachers, do you have advice about how I discuss this with the teacher without sounding (1) critical (2) like some ridiculous tiger mother (3) sounded deluded about DDs abilities?

I really struggle to get my point across, as I try and tread the line between being supportive of the teacher; not implying the other kids in DDs group aren't that bright; and not knowing much about how KS1 is taught being (as she's my first born) while trying to express something isn't right!

When DS1 was in year 2 I felt he could do much more than they were asking of him at school and when I asked him to do stuff at home the quality of his work is much better.
Year 2 is still very young but you dont want her dropping behind.
If you struggle with the school I would suggest a tutor (a friend who is a primary school teacher if you have one) who will give you an honest opinion. It may be you have rose tinted spectacles (although the level 10 reading sounds impressive) or it may be this teacher does not 'get' / inspire your child?

I ran out of steam with DS1's year 2 teacher. We could not see eye to eye on this. I did not 'get' how she was teacher maths to him. I asked a friend of mine who is a primary school teacher to look at it and she concurred with me that what this woman was doing was b0ll0cks but the school's official line was I shouldnt involve myself as I might confuse my son ;-)

She sounds like one of mine. Even in yr5 her teacher was very dubious about a grammar school education- she will struggle, better to be top of a non-profit selective school etc. She really took off in yr6, got greater depth of whatever across all her SATs, consistently in the top few in her grammar school, almost always meeting or exceeding her targets which are high for her due to her SATs results.

I think that the things which have helped are doing things outside of school with her. Unfortunately in a grammar school area some children are going to extra tutition from yr2 or younger. You won't necessarily hear about it at the time but your child will increasingly tell you about 'Anna said her tutor said x...'. We also have found that Irlens syndrome has provided some answers and glasses have helped them to enjoy reading and focus more.

I think your daughter sounds lovely and with loads of potential. I’m quite surprised there are such clearly defined ‘sets’ at such a young age. For DD (now y6) at that age they would have read with the teacher in ability groups but that was only about 20-30 mins a week each, everything else was done in mixed groups. I think this defined setting can label children too early and is very demotivating for those in perceived lower sets.

Having said all that, there might not be much difference between the work and ability in the top set and other sets, particularly at an overall high achieving school. I think you should ask for a proper sit down meeting with the teacher, air your concerns, make clear that DD’s ability at home is not being reflected in class etc and her confidence is being affected. I have seen children moved up in sets due to parental input, I think sometimes it just makes the school look afresh at the child, she’s just starting a new school year so it would be appropriate to re-examine where the children are at.

One final point, my brother struggled through primary and early secondary, he has dyslexic traits, and it wasn’t until sixth form when he could drop the essay writing stuff and focus on maths and science that he started to really flourish (hadn’t seemed amazingly gifted in even these areas before). He went on to get a first, a PHD and now earns crazy amounts of cash.

Totally concur with PP who said parental involvement is a major factor, which my brother had and your girl has that and she will be fine, i’m Sure, good luck.

Shouldwestay I had wondered about visual problems too, and will look into that. It's hard to know if I'm just grasping around needlessly though!

Medium thank you. I think I need to see the teacher and ask her to talk me through the setting criteria, especially as it's a new year. Hopefully that's a fairly neutral place to start!

White book band at the start of Year 2 is high ability, reading wise. I wouldn't panic, just keep her motivated and engaged in things she is interested in, and be supportive of her.

I know you worry OP and that's normal but please just stop.

Your child has just entered Year 2. The Swedish don't teach their kids to read and write until 7 years, I believe as it doesn't click for most. Your child can read, she can do Maths, her teachers are happy with her progress. Be happy about this! There is no need to mount any pressure or worry!

School did not click for me until I was 9. I had no friends, I had an awful home life, I was distracted and inattentive. Then suddenly in Year 5 it all clicked and I really started to enjoy it. I didn't know my times tables until then.
I didnt pass my 11+ either. But I went on to do 2 degrees.

I think that yes, you should monitor your child's progress and yes, you should give extra help where she needs it. But chill, let your daughter get into her groove. She will get there.

I should say that tutoring in yr2 goes against everything that I believe, but unfortunately in a grammar school area you need to understand that it is happening and some children on higher tables are only there because they covered the material that the teacher is teaching them three weeks ago with a tutor/ in a learning group. Not necessary for grammar school but it happens and doesn't do anyone any favours at secondary school unless they always have a tutor.

shouldwestay I think there is a lot of drilling at home but few people admit to it. It emerged some people are doing extension maths every night, which explained a few things!

My sister was definitely an average achiever in year 2 and up until about year 5.

She went to Cambridge and studied maths so ended up OK.

I was the sort who could read at 3 and was probably very annoying and although my achievements were fine they weren’t as good

Sounds like my DS. He ended up being diagnosed with dyslexia aged 10, despite school disbelieving us. In KS1 he worked through the reading scheme at the expected rate, he was at the high end of age related ability, but not quite.He could keep up very able classmates in class discussion, but written work and reading level were distinctly average. One of the last to get a pen (rant about pen licences is for another thread)... OP sounds like you are doing everything you can. Best age to test for dyslexia is after 8, so your DD is still a bit young. DS now 13 thriving in selective indy that understood you can be bright AND dyslexic, not understood by all. Primary schools have to tick boxes, I'm afraid you will find it very hard to get support if she is meeting expectations. Effort is directed to those not meeting.

Miranda thanks. It seems like kids are either totally on it by yr2 or bloom much later, from the stories here!

changemyname interesting, thank you. I really can’t tell if the phonetic spelling is due to the fact it doesn’t seem to be systematically taught; laziness (it’s quicker to express herself phonetically); or ability/dyslexia. It never entered my head she could be dyslexic until year 1 and it would still surprise me.

I find book band doesnt reflect ability. Dd could read lime/brown/grey at end of yr r. But here we are still stuck on lime at start oglf yr 2. So im ignoring to an extent while we read roald dahl etc at home.

You dont say where in school year dd falls? As in general sept borns are doing much better and it gradually changes and becomes less towards gcse/alevel.
I dont think preschool ability is a huge reflection as a lot of eyfs targets could be achieved year(s) earlier. But even then the maths gets a lot harder between yr r and yr 2.
I think white at start of yr 2 sounds fine. Target for end of yr 1 was purple.
There are several in dd year doing really well (they are all sept born though and now 7...)

january another good indicator is if she can sound out longer more complicated words, or she gets them from using skills of what the word should say based on the story. Being an avid reader meant I found it hard to understand why my otherwise bright kid didn't want to read like the others in the class. But if they enjoy non fiction, they are reading and learning so much. We are not in a grammar school area thank goodness, having seen others go through that, I'm sure my DS would have needed a good day and the wind behind him to have passed. We were fortunate to be able to choose the right Indy as we felt that he would just fall into the average middle at the local comps, for which no extra effort seems to be made, just like our primary experience. Embrace your DDs interest to read what she wants at home, please don't get hung up on school reading schemes like I did as I now regret wasting my DS's energy that way.

My very ver late summer born was meeting expectations in yr 2. Something clicked in yr 4 and she became the top reader in her class very quickly. Fast forward to yr 6 which she finished this year and she was a couple of points off maximum marks in all her stats and is in the top sets in every subject in her new secondary school. She did work hard though as she was determined not to get left behind by her historically more academic friends.

Thanks all! Hersetta when you say she had to work hard, could you illustrate what you mean? I feel pulled between ‘leave her be’ and ‘book a tutor’! There must be a middle ground that’s a healthy way forward!

Wasn't Michelle Obama a late reader? She went on to Princeton.