What would you make of this report?

[m0therofdragons]

Dd and her teacher seem to have clashed this year and last parents evening was the teacher listening her flaws (essentially all mine and dh's due to genetics). She's year 5.

Her report has come home and she is academically doing better than ever. She's usually above expected but is now one higher "well above" which only a few reach in the school. However behaviour wise she's marked really low for not following class rules. Clearly dd is a different dc at school as at home she's incredibly obedient (other 2 dc are not!). Dd likes rules that are clear and fair so it goes completely against her personality to deliberately disobey. I'm not letting her know exactly what it says as I genuinely think she'll be really upset her teacher thinks this of her.

Teacher just said she needs to understand others need help more than her so she has to wait. Dd says whenever she puts her hand up for help she's completely ignored as everyone else in the class needs more help than her. She feels invisible - I wonder if she's being naughty to get attention. She's quiet and focused so is an easy child to just let get on with it iyswim.

Dd loves school and I don't know how to deal with this.

If she is excelling and exceeding I expect she is finished quicker and not making good use of her time and energy.

I guess that's how I feel but don't want to be that parent complaining my child is bored but if she's achieving well then what exactly would she achieve if she was behaving all the time? She needs challenges but hates failing so if the challenge is hard then support needs to be accessible. But I do understand that those struggling need to take priority so I've no idea what the answer is.

When does this term end and a new class year/teacher begin?

We had this with one of our DC. School came to an arrangement in the end that if he finished his work before everyone else he could go on the computer (this was 20 years ago when computers were a novelty).

Could she not be given extension work to get on with if she's finished?

I would suspect a personality clash and a teacher not dealing well with a higher ability child. And I would do nothing about it until I saw how she gets on next year. Do you know anything about next year's teacher?

What is the teacher doing to extend your DD? Why is she finishing tasks and being left with nothing to do? Is the work differentiated? These are the questions you should be asking. The report reflects badly on the teacher and it sounds as if your DD is bored...

At this point in the school year I'd do what Bishybarnybee suggests as well. I've discovered that now and then a teacher just doesn't get 'who' a child is which can make for a difficult year, but at this point there's little to be gained by doing anything unless they are getting the same teacher next year.

I agree that the teaching is poor. She should be given extension work to extend her knowledge of the topic. If it is not given, how can she be above expected in everything? How can the teacher know this if she is not extended? Sounds wrong to me.

They do give extended work. Dd finds work easy so when she gets stuck on something it's rare so she doesn't always cope well - she knows this is something she needs to be aware of so I'm by no means saying she's perfect. She is a perfectionist and hates free hand drawing as she's not able to get that perfect and would far rather write a story or do maths spreadsheets. Her teacher does lots of art.

It's really useful to read others interpreting it the same as me. She's honestly so obedient at home, no back chat or rudeness.

I am thinking I'll sit back on the basis dd is happy and see what her new teacher says in October. I can't see the point in arguing with her current teacher. I did ask for examples of her not following rules and he gave one where she went and looked at something minor rather than work and I asked what she did when she corrected her behaviour and she replied "oh well she was happy so I let her carry on" 😳

Report implies dd is a nightmare with behaviour issues - this is not the child I see.

You lost me at "if she's achieving well then what exactly would she achieve if she was behaving all the time?"

It isn't just about her and her achievements. Maybe if she behaved better then others would get a chance to achieve too - because the teacher wouldnt constantly be having to deal with her.

It would be interesting to know how much of her teacher's time she takes up. I wonder whether it is so much less than the 1/30th she is entitled to. Could be she takes up a good deal more.

It sounds to me like she is not willing to wait her turn for help and demands it instantly rather than waiting. If she likes rules etc then perhaps she is mildly on the spectrum and wants an instant solution to her problem. Seen similar with other children I have taught.

A teacher will not put down a poor grade for anything lightly because they know that it will then create extra work for them in having to deal with the parent complaining about it/following up on it. So they would really justify it in their mind first before committing to a report.

If she has a different teacher next year I'd leave it. In fact I'd leave it anyway as far as the teacher is concerned and speak to your child about politely waiting if the teacher is assisting other people. Perhaps get her to have a book with her to read when she has finished the work and extension work.

She's on the spectrum? Really, from my post you've got that? I like rules too and there's nothing to suggest I'm on the spectrum although technically I guess everyone is somewhere on there. Got to love a mn diagnosis. She is very like me, dh and my db in personality so her quirks aren't unusual. We are all fairly high achievers so that's not a massive shock although school has been surprised since reception.

I would absolutely agree with you re maybe she's taking up too much of the teacher's time which is why I asked for examples so I could understand as my experience of her is I ask her to do something and she does it. If she was that bad then wouldn't they be wanting to work with us as parents? I'm not suggesting dd is perfect I just don't understand how she can get her work done to such a high level yet behave so out-of-character badly. If she gave me examples then maybe I'd be clearer and be able to support school.

I have spoken to dd discreetly and she says her teacher does a lot of work with another dc who has a lot of issues but is lovely and needs extra support. When teacher is working with that dc or when she's on her iPad at her desk nobody is allowed to disturb them and there's no TA as generally it's a good class so the TA is often called in elsewhere. She said she used to put her hand up but doesn't bother anymore.

My df asked her dd if my dd was naughty in class and she apparently laughed and said "no she always gets chosen by the head to do readings when we have guests and things because she's so good." Oh well, as I said dd is happy. I think her teacher would struggle at my bil's inner city school if she can't manage this behaviour.

It isn't just about her and her achievements. Maybe if she behaved better then others would get a chance to achieve too - because the teacher wouldnt constantly be having to deal with her.

This!

I would work on her growth mindset. It sounds like she's found school easy, then this teacher has given her stuff that challenges her and her fixed mindset has meant that she is scared to fail and thus give the problem a go. I have experienced this before and had parents say "but last year he was able to complete 4 pages of a text book in half an hour with no mistakes." My reply was always, "well, doesn't that show that the work wasn't challenging enough". It can be really hard with more able children to change that mindset - if you're always getting things easily and right and pride yourself on your intelligence then getting things wrong or finding it tricky challenges your whole self view, so you give up. The way to fix this is to allow her to figure it out herself, so in that respect her teacher is doing the right thing.

I say this from a personal perspective too, not just as a teacher. I hated, and I mean hated my Year 6 teacher. He didn't gush about me like it teachers had done, he told me off in the same way others were (many teachers go easier on perceived 'good' students) and he had the gall to tell me that I had things to work on. You know what, now I'm older I realise he was the best teacher I had as I tried to "prove him wrong" and started to break out of my fixed mindset.

Obviously I may be completely off the mark and he may just be shit and have an axe to grind with your DD, but please think about it.

There are clearly a number of possible options here:

One is that your DD and the teacher just haven't 'gelled' well, and that the teacher has not managed challenge for a high ability child well.

Another is that, while your child is able, her inability to approach challenge independently has led to her being relatively demanding.

The two together, of course, can create a bit of a vicious circle.

I'm picturing a scenario in which your DD completes the main class task quickly, while everyone else is still working on it and the teacher is supporting those who really struggle. A challenge task is available, which your DD takes but, rather than spending time really working at it (as lower ability children may well be doing on the main task, though for your DD this is a relatively unusual situation) immediately says 'I'm stuck' and asks for help.

While of course your DD is as worthy of support as all the other children, if the teacher is at that point putting her utmost energy into children who are really struggling even with the basic work, she may find the fact that your DD is expecting to be immediately helped as soon as she is even slightly stuck a little hard to manage.

Equally, if the teacher sets an art task and your DD gets upset or gives up because she can't do it perfectly, a teacher with an overview of how hard the rest of the class are working at it for perhaps equally low, or lower, results, may be looking for your DD to show greater perseverance and independence.

Developing your DD's ability to work hard at genuinely hard problems - have a look at nrich's higher level problems, for example, making mistakes, going down blind alleys and then finding a way to a solution without help, maybe after an extended period of time or after returning to it several times - may be very helpful in the longer term.

I am not suggesting that your DD shouldn't get her 'teacher time' - through the teacher designing and providing challenge tasks, for example. But it is possible that she may be demanding more, and more instantly, than her 'real need' requires, and that others in the clss are in fact working far harder for much lower results with a better attitude.

It is not uncommon for a child who is always picked for visitors and who is regarded as especially 'clever' to get away with behaviours that wouldn't be acceptable for other children.

I would take this report seriously.

I suspect that there's a deeper root to this problem - which is not to say that your DD is reacting perfectly, but that there may be more to it than first meets the eye.

She may have a teacher who, for whatever reason (not least Ofsted's priorities) is focusing on the lower achievers, and likes doing this, perhaps even prefers it to dealing with the most able. The way in which she is doing one-on-ones with those in need of help, but not, apparently, more able children would suggest this.

As a result of both this and her own personality, OP's DD doesn't feel that she gets much recognition for what she can achieve, that perhaps it is a bit taken for granted. Hence she feels more deeply than she needs to the way in which she has been treated by the teacher.

It's nearly the end of term, so I'd live with this and hope for someone more sympathetic next term. But keep an eye out for any recurrence. We had this problem with DD, but earlier on in school. Other children were being praised for stuff she'd been able to do for years, and she really resented the fact that she wasn't being noticed for the good stuff she could do (in her case it came out with an obsession with Star of the Week).

Also, I'm intrigued how many posters have jumped from "my DD feels she's invisible" to "She's asking for too much attention as soon as she gets stuck" which I can't see in the OP's posts at all - we have no idea how long it takes and how much waiting has happened before her behaviour goes off-piste. Perhaps if the teacher has the same kind of underlying hostility to the needs of able children, that would explain what's going on.

The evidence for 'needing help when stuck' came from lines like this:

"She needs challenges but hates failing so if the challenge is hard then support needs to be accessible."

and
"when she gets stuck on something it's rare so she doesn't always cope well"

It isn't just about her and her achievements. Maybe if she behaved better then others would get a chance to achieve too - because the teacher wouldnt constantly be having to deal with her.

Which is fine if she was able to help me to understand what the bad behaviour looks like. Dd is also used to being incredibly patient at home with her 2 younger sisters so maybe that patience doesn't extend to school, but teacher is so unwilling to back up her colour banding it's hard to drill down into it and understand. If I don't understand what behaviours dd needs to improve then I think it's unfair to expect dd to.

It's useful to see different views on this. Fingers crossed next year is more clear.

She may have a teacher who, for whatever reason (not least Ofsted's priorities) is focusing on the lower achievers, and likes doing this, perhaps even prefers it to dealing with the most able. The way in which she is doing one-on-ones with those in need of help, but not, apparently, more able children would suggest this.

There are still children in Y5 classes who cannot work independently, who are still learning to count to ten or working on phonics. They are the ones most in need of help and they deserve it.

The latest murmurs from OFSTED suggest that teachers should be working with these children and TAs should be working with the children who are further on.

I don't disagree with you Lichfield. The problem is that, with resources so limited, this means that the most able children end up marking time, and not being challenged.

We've seen this process in action - when DD started school six years ago, there were plenty of enrichment activities, but one by one all of those things disappeared because funding got more tight, year after year.

I think it would be better if schools (and perhaps also people on here) were more open about this. Posters regularly say 'oh a good school should differentiate for all its children'. The sad truth is that there aren't many that can afford to do that these days (not least when Ofsted rewards focusing on the lower achievers more than it does working with the most able).

Actually I think that's a great idea - teachers support lower ability dc while a ta helps dc who are at the higher levels. Just because they are working at a higher level doesn't mean they don't need reassurance.

I fully appreciate teachers work incredibly hard so I feel very uncomfortable feeling critical re the teacher - this isn't something I'm happy to feel.

Have you considered as above about whether she has a growth or fixed mindset? Of course children of a higher ability need reassurance but a lot of that is actually developed from the child being the one to try and tackle the challenge, rather than always rely on teacher input for a fear of trying and getting it wrong. For example in my class I will spend some time at the start of each lesson helping those who need a lot of input before checking how those who are more able are getting on. I then ask leading questions to guide thinking rather than tell them the answer, which can frustrate some children who like to repeat procedures rather than apply their learning.

Again, without knowing the teacher this is purely conjecture, I am just trying to give a different viewpoint.