Would you say anything to this mother?

[CandyCrush77]

Was just chatting to another mother at the school gates. Our DSs are in the same class but I don't usually chat to this person or know her very well. DS is (or used to be known) for being quite naughty at school but has improved massively and is now in year 3. He is going well academically and still has reminders in class but no big issues and his teacher seems happy. Both reports at parents evenings have been good. He does still muck around sometimes with another boy (and get a reminder) but nothing worse than that. Anyhow, i start chatting to this woman who proceeds to tell me how badly behaved my son at school and that he struggles to concentrate/focus etc. I was very taken aback and said, well the teacher hasn't said anything to me, to which she said, well that have 30 kids in the class so they have to let some things go. She then said she had seen DS act nicely sometimes so was surprised he misbehaved at school etc etc. I was a bit stunned to be honest and let it go but am now feeling really pissed off about it. DS WAS a bit badly behaved in reception but has come on leaps and bounds since then but he appears to have been labelled by at least one parent as a "'naughty boy". Worse than that, she seemed to think that naughty = stupid which is not the case. Her DS is quite bright and I had the distinct impression she was being quite patronising. Spoke to DS's teacher only this morning, who stopped me to say how well behaved DS had been this week, so definitely no issues that she wanted to raise. I am on the verge of emailing this woman and pulling her up on her comments. The risk if though that I will seem completely mental and destroy any chance of a friendly relationship at the school gates. Any views?

My DS was labelled a naughty boy in reception and from time to time virtual strangers would lecture me about my bad parenting in the playground. I found it really upsetting to start with , DS did have challenging behaviour in reception and ks1, he just wouldn't join in, pogoed on the spot rather than sitting and frequently did the work he wanted to do ( either maths or imaginary cricket leagues ) rather than what he was supposed to be doing. He gradually improved and didn't stand out so much by year 3. But I still got comments throughout primary. I think my skin gradually thickened. I usually just let the parent say what they wanted and gave minimal replies, usually their minds were made up, me arguing seemed a bit pointless. But it is a bit disturbing knowing there are quite detailed conversations going on behind your back about your child, and about you. But really the best thing Is to ignore , though this can be hard to do. My DD is younger and just an all round people pleaser who tries hard to behave well. The attitude of other parents towards me has really changed. They are friendly and invite her to play dates! Having a child whose behaviour is a bit unusual seems to really upset and worry other parents and in my experience most other parents avoid you as much as possible. It's hard. I sympathise, but I would advise letting it go.

That's what we call low level disruption - harmless enough but can be quite irritating when it's on a continual basis. Other children would certainly pick up on it as being disruptive though, as the teacher would need to keep correcting him. I could definitely see a child going home and saying "Mam, Johnny was being bold today and wouldn't stop talking".
Not much you can do with other mum - certainly don't email her, it will just fuel a gossip mill.

"His usual "offences" are talking when he's not supposed to, making silly jokes and swinging on his chair."

Low level disruption:

Low-level classroom disruption hits learning, Ofsted warns

I would say that if worked out on a minute by minute basis, your son causes more learning time to be lost through teacher having to redirect him than another child who did something 'worse' but only once a week. And certainly as far as the others in the class are concerned, a verbal correction to your DS maybe once every 5-10 minutes will make them much more 'aware' of his behaviour than a child who was told off severely, or even sent to the head, once a week or once a month.

But that's exactly the sort of behaviour that was making my daughter cry. He thought of it as making jokes and messing around a bit, while she saw it as something that made her miserable.

Low level disruption has a really big effect on the other pupils. The chair-swinging/joking/chat-back were far more disruptive to her learning than the huge temper explosions and defiance of the two children in the class who are more obviously disruptive.

Teacher out of interest, would you say low-level disruptions are quite common in Reception and KS1? Also what are effective methods for teachers and parents to address these and support a calmer, more focused attitude? Is it, with most kids, a matter of growing out of it? Our dc start school at an incredibly young age in the UK, some are 4 so just past being a toddler... I wonder if low level disruption in primary is less common in countries where the dc start school at 6 or 7 years of age..

10, tbh, the behaviours that the OP describes would be 'normal' for the age range in Reception / KS1, and the periods for which children would be required to sit still and concentrate in those year groups would be much shorter and age appropriate - 1 minute per year of age for sitting and listening is a good rule of thumb.

The curriculum in reception is play-based, so the requirement for 'silent focused working' or 'sitting in chairs hat could be swung on' is [should be] very limited - and the 4/5 vs 6/7 dichotomy is not really a true one, because in countries where 'the setting called school' starts later, there s almost always a 'setting called something else' for play-based learning exactly equivalent to our Reception classes. I'm not a Reception expert, but IME the best Reception teachers provide the same 'learning experiences;' in lots of different forms to be accessed in lots of different ways - some outside, some inside, some sitting, some active, some using concrete materials, some using large equipment.

Equally, the best avoidance of 'low level disruption' in Y1 is differentiated provision - the best Y1 settings have elements of play-based learning still built into them, but slightly longer periods of seated, focused tasks are required. Children are beginning to learn school 'norms' of behaviour and will be able to maintai these for increasing lengths of time.

However, the OP's son is in Y3, and by this point, longer periods of focused work, and an understanding of the 'norms' of school behaviour are expected from all those capable of it (one form of differentiation, at this age, will of course be provision for those for whom a disability or SEN makes this difficult)

I do remember the very sad post from a poster whose son, in a private pre-prep, had been labelled as 'naughty' because he couldn't concentrate for a 2 hour Geography lesson seated at a desk ... at 4. The increasing pressure on 'the amount that must be learned' in KS1 is pushing a 'sit and do' culture into some Reception / Y1 classes too early. But IME if a school gets a 'high level of low level disruption;' as a result, the fault is in the provision, not the child IYSWIM.

Couldn't agree more, Teacher

Candycrush
obviously no-one has ever told this other mother that judging other people's children is a risky business if you haven't finished rearing your own.
Chickens have a way of coming home to roost.

It's very difficult when someone judges your child, Dd is 16 and has autism. A few parents are lovely but bitches are endemic to the school gate. Rise above it.

Thank you teacher that's really interesting and sounds like a good approach. I understand that in Y3 children would be expected to stick to the behaviour rules, most of the time. I'm sure OP's son will get there!

"obviously no-one has ever told this other mother that judging other people's children is a risky business if you haven't finished rearing your own.
Chickens have a way of coming home to roost. "

Absolutely!

Have I missed something or are we relying for our assessment of the OP's ds on another 5yo? And how do we know he is a reliable witness? From my experience some children can be very quick to divide other children into "good" and "naughty" on very little evidence. I once helped out in a primary school and what I most remember is the difficulty of getting some of the self-proclaimed "teacher's-helps" to do any work at all: they were so busy watching the "naughty boys" for signs of naughtiness.

If your child wasn't in year 3, I would be wondering if this woman was my SIL as she does this sort of thing and would think nothing of doing this.

But she cannot handle the truth back! She can be bloody rude about others while having her head up her arse about her own children.

Ignore her and if he was being that bad I'm sure the teacher would be honest.

Teacherwith2kids, that article is clearly written about secondary school kids. I resent the ongoing suggestion that DS is some kind of nuisance or disruptive influence. He is not. Not any more than the kid who needs extra reading help, or the kid who is behind in maths, or the kids who cries at everything, or the really bright kids who get extra tuition, all of whom exist in DS's class. Why so quick to judge and label? He is 8 FFS. His character is not fully formed. He is not perfect. He has a huge amount of energy and is massively curious. He DOES concentrate and sit still for long periods of time when something interests him, much less so when things don't. Milk, he sounds exactly like your DS. I intend to love him and nature him as he develops, as he has over the years and will continue to do. For all those with perfect kids, I guess they just go from brilliant to brilliant.

Thank you Groove, I agree. I am very confident that if his behaviour WAS having an impact on the other kids leaning or was disruptive then I would have been told.

Candy, I teach - and have taught - many, many children like your DS, both in Y3 and in the couple of years above.

I do not tell their parents that i remind them every 5 minutes to concentrate and sit still - it is my job to do that, and I do it because it is my job in order for those children to learn. I reseat everyone in the class according to the best position for these children not to disrupt others,. i deploy TAs, and plan enormous amounts of intervention and specify exactly what happens to them on my daily plans.

But i don't tell parents about this particularly, because it's normal. it's normal to differentiate for behaviour as well as for learning. I would no more tell the parent about the differentiation that i do for their child daily than I tell the parents of my most able pupil about the detail of the differentiation I do for them. At parents' evenings, and in reports, I say 'he / she is improving; their concentration span is increasing; with support and reminders they are getting more work done, which is great'.

But it doesn't mean that those children have no impact on the rest of the class, that other members of the class wouldn't form their own conclusions from the specific seating plans that separate particular children; the seating of the TA; the constant verbal reminders; the additional resources that that child will have on their desk / the carpet to fiddle with.

If those children weren't there, the rest of the class would have a different experience. i don't resent those children, any more than I resent the very able children, or the emotionally needy children, or the hungry children who need breakfast, but they change the experience of the class and they take time out of the day that could be used elsewhere with specific impact on other children - because however hard i try, my TA and cannot be everywhere, all the time.

it is low-level misbehaviour. It will pass, probably, or will be increasingly contained as the classroom becomes more structured - or it won't pass, and you will start to hear more about it because it will become less and less age appropriate and in secondary such behaviour is generally less tolerated than in primary, where we are still educating children about being in school. But it ISN'T negligible, and it DOES have an impact.

(My colleagues would tell you that I love, in particular, my oddballs, the children who can't sit still, the children who call out, the children who tell startlingly silly jokes at utterly inappropriate moments. They absolutely make my job worthwhile, and I love them to bits. But if one of their parents said that they have no effect on me or on the rest of the class on the basis that I report and rejoice in the positive - they are improving, they had a good day / week / lesson - not the negative, I would laugh at the ludicrousness of that idea.)

Op this is mumsnet. If your child isn't always fully obedient at school it's entirely your fault because you're too busy chugging Special Brew outside Lidls.

You're clearly a loving and involved parent. Again, speak to the class teacher and ask if he/she thinks you need to seek further support and keep the fuck away from the sort of parent who spoke to you.

I'm with teacher on this one. My ds used to be a easily distracted kid. Something clicked in yr3, now he actively avoid sitting with his mates during class, when they have choice. On parents' eve, teacher told me he was really good at ignoring disruptive children, and few others start to follow him. But reality is, he is made to sit near the disruptive child, and he is not so happy about it.
Yes he can ignore and try to concentrate, but it's not easy. I asked him if he wanted me to talk to the teacher, but he said no, because then whoever sit next to them would suffer. So, although I wouldn't do it, it's very tempting to tell the parent of the child. Maybe that Mum was in same position as me?

The parent obviously misses out on some soft skills and thought you'd be happy to discuss this . But honestly, children do come home and tell their parents everything.

My favourite tale was when DD3 (7, Yr2) came out of school and said 'Mum, guess what! Today I got to spend the whole morning in with class 1 and do whatever I wanted!'
'Oh, why was that?'
'Oh, because Freddie was trashing the classroom, so we all had to line up by the door and go to class 1.'
'Oh I see. Where was your teacher?'
'Trying to stop Freddie trashing the classroom. He was trying to throw the chairs, but she was managing to stop him. Now he's got to stay at home for two days and think about his behaviour.'
'Oh. Ok'.

A few days later, I said 'How was your day?' and got 'Great! Freddie only hit my once today!'

DD3 loves 'Freddie', and having a sister with SN she's familiar with all kids being different so it's all fine.

Tbh, it only matters what this woman thinks of your DS if her opinion matters. If it doesn't, I wouldn't waste my time on it.

I'm at all these stories of children coming home and telling their parents everything that happened at school.

Ds used to do alternate between "nothing" and, if he was being extra communicative, "stuff"

Must have done a reasonable amount of "stuff" as he (now 15) has just finished his Nat 5s (Scottish equivalent of GCSEs) and should have done really well in them

My daughter moved schools to avoid a naughty child disrupting the class - he went from a quiet child to a total nightmare - hitting kicking throwing chairs etc So yes she told me every detail of her day because she was so frustrated at not being able to concentrate and work and kept having to leave the room to 'run' to the hall - she also hated being told that the whole class was naughty and wasted a lot of HT time who had better things to do.

Teacher, kids have an impact on the class for many different reasons. Why are you calling out "low level disruption" as so dreadful and envisioning that those kids aren't in your class? It has NEVER been presented to me as such and I have asked previously if it has an impact on DS's learning was was told no, so i struggle to sew how it has an impact other kids in the class. Say he gets 2 reminders a day - X, don't call out, let Y talk, or X sit down, how exactly is that having an impact on the class? Really glad that the school does not take your approach.

Sally, what are you talking about? My child has never hit anyone or thrown chairs?

And this mother wasn't raising it to say that her son was been affected.

Candy,

Possibly worth asking your teacher ho many times a day your DS needs a reminder. I would absolutely agree that 2 a day is not taking any time at all. If it is multiple times in each lesson - which would still be within the range of 'absolutely normal, not worth telling a parent about, part of my job - that is different.

Do you have a good handle on how often he does need a verbal reminder / actually does these things? Is it rare (1x or 2x a week), daily but infrequent (maybe once or twice a day) or frequent but still low level (multiple times each lesson)? I had envisaged multiple times each lesson, because that is well within my range of 'normal' for children who sound like your son. But if it genuinely is rare, only once or twice a week, then i agree that that causes no disruption to others.