Have a go at the key stage 2 grammar SATS.

[neolara]

Have a go at this mini Key Stage 2 SATs test.

See if you'd pass.

I think it's incredibly important that all 10 year olds know what subordinating conjunctions, modal verbs and determiners are because I use these terms on a daily basis in my actual daily grown up life.

In fact, I'm delighted that my kids will be spending more time learning to label parts of speech and consequently less time on largely irrelevant stuff like computer programming, art, developing social skills, music, history, geography etc. The sort of things that barely impacts on my actual daily grown up life as I work alongside other people, use computers every day, travel, work as a social scientist, appreciate a wide range of cultural experiences such as music on the radio, plays, art galleries .......

While I totally get the need for kids to learn good spelling, punctuation and grammar, somehow I can't get my head round the feeling that things have just gone nuts. Firstly, learning to label grammar parts is not the same as learning to use good grammar. Secondly, learning to label grammar parts at the expense of learning all the other much more useful stuff seems crazy.

Thank you.

I don't know any German!

Why did you ask for the link then?

Do German 7 year olds have a formal grammar test?

You seem to be having trouble following the thread, Dorothy. You said:

In other countries children learn all this at a very young age as well, nobody cares and nobody minds, but here people get into such a panic about it!

I said Not in such detail or at such a young age and posted examples from Year 1 to Year 6.

You said Children in Germany certainly learn grammar of similar complexity at the same age.

I asked to see the grammar curriculum for 6 year olds in Germany. Silly me for not asking for it in English

Why would the German curriculum even exist in English??

German children get tested regularly. Insuffient attainment means they have to repeat the year.

DorothyL maybe you could translate some of the key objectives?

Yes, that would be useful to back up your point, wouldn't it!

I'll be more specific Dorothy. Do seven year old children in Germany sit formal national grammar tests, the results of which are reported to the German government? (not internal assessment)

There doesn't appear to be any mention of verbs or nouns in the link posted.

I got 70% and it's bloody ridiculous that Y6 children are being forced to do tests that hard. My Y9 DS wouldn't even know half of those.

And just to be really clear I'm talking about a grammar test not a reading or writing or language or literature test a test solely of ability to identify parts of speech.

National tests like this don't exist in Germany, at any age. It's a completely different system, but full of stress for pupils nevertheless. Grades are given for tests and the average is used for deciding who passes the year, and for deciding who goes to which type of secondary school.

In 1. Klasse, age 6, children in Germany only just learn to read therefore explicit grammar teaching is quite limited, but it quickly picks up from 2. Klasse and by age 10 children have learnt all the terminology and are explicitly tested on it.

I know I am not going to convince you so I'll give up trying, but I am convinced that the teaching of this terminology can easily be achieved - children will take it in their stride just like they learn other terminology. It will be useful for them when learning an mfl, and when thinking about how English works.

I am pretty sure that other European countries are similar in their explicit grammar teaching, without this reaction to it.

I'm using at the moment a book called "Lengua Castellana 2" to work with DS at home (7 year old in Y2).

In the book they are introducing grammar terminology gradually (nouns, verbs, adjectives, parts of the speech, etc), which is very similar to what he is learning in English at his school (comprehensive state primary). We haven't come across adverbs yet in the Spanish book, although they have already studied them at school in English from what he tells me.

The grammar content for both curricula seems very similar so far, and as I said before, it makes things quite a lot easier as the knowledge of grammar in one language can be applied to the other.

So at 5 and 6 they are not expected to learn grammar for a test which is simply beyond many children's maturity then.

Thought so.

That doesn't similar to the current Year2, Elle, what you've described is too simplistic.

It's the formal testing people are reacting to Dorothy! No one objects to children being taught how to apply grammar in their written work.

Current year 2 curriculum

What I really wonder is, England start formal education 4+, which is years earlier than a lot of countries. So, why the attainment of English children aren't significantly higher than those countries start formal education later?
It's not teacher's fault, of course, but English education system has a lot to learn from other countries, maybe?

I got 80% but that's because my mum forced me to learn grammar.

The Maths test though I got 18% which is embarrassingly awful, especially as I use maths every day at work.

This is scary stuff - poor poor kids

Thread on a similar subject here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2570375-aibu-to-think-our-kids-have-been-set-up-to-fail?watched=1&msgid=59261454#59261454

A lot of countries doesn't have a formal test for 5/6 years olds because they haven't even started school yet. I wonder what English government trying to achieve by doing this.

I know it is a simplistic comparison. It is only based on what I can see from the work DS tells me he does at school, the homework he brings home, and the glimpses I get of his school books at parents evening, compared to the content of the book we are using with curriculum from another country.

I also remember having studied grammar in depth on my own language at primary school. We didn't have national tests comparable to SATS in second grade and sixth grade. But we did have monthly and termly tests on each subject every year which were important towards the final result which determined whether you were able to go to next year or repeat. I don't see that they have those kind of tests here in the UK. And I think all children progress no matter what, for example some reading chapter books and other still getting the grasps of phonics. Whatever grade they get in the SATS in Year 2, they will still get to pass to Year 3 the following year. It's a very different system.

Anyway, I'm just sharing my experience to add a comparison on how grammar is taught and tested in other countries. I'm not saying the teachers are wrong to complain or feel that these tests are wrong for the reasons you say. I'm not a primary teacher, so all of you are in a better position to say what you think of the new curriculum and the tests.

I do think it is very wrong to tests the current Year 6 children using the new curriculum when they hardly spend enough time being taught it. The tests and the curriculum should have been introduced gradually. And maybe only test the current Year 2 with the new SATs and only them in Year 6 when they eventually get there having spent the entire primary years under the new curriculum.

That would definitely be fairer. But the government want to rush everything in before a possible change in government so that it's harder to change.

Oh my god, that makes no sense. It did in my head. I haven't even had a glass of yet!