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Primary education

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Major upset in Yorkshire over school insisting on trousers for girls

150 replies

fortyfide · 20/05/2015 12:13

Are trousers a rarity in schools
And do unifroms get changed frequently at great expense?

OP posts:
upduffedandworrying · 21/05/2015 13:25

dueling there are plenty of people on MN who think that pink hair and a tattoo also means you have no self respect. Idiotic, but that's the narrow minded world we live in unfortunately.

morethanpotatoprints · 21/05/2015 13:26

I'm not surprised that some male teachers are uncomfortable with some skirts tbh.
A school near us has just got a new head, changed uniform from almost ankle length navy skirt, to those tartan ones usually worn at primary.
Some of the girls who are taller their skirt is almost showing their ass Shock
Firstly, it isn't the fault of the parents for buying the skirt, they can't exactly add a bit of material on the bottom and going up a size in waist doesn't make them longer.
Some girls, my dd included don't necessarily know how to behave in a skirt, she is definitely a trouser girl. I'd hate to think if she had to wear one of these.

soapboxqueen · 21/05/2015 13:29

Dueling I really don't agree. Unless there is information I have missed, the school are avoiding the skirt length issue by moving to trousers. Simple

LeChien · 21/05/2015 13:34

The school have a duty to discipline if regulations are flaunted.

If a school wants to ban skirts because they are impractical, or they want boys and girls to wear the same, then fine.
A school banning skirts because it can make a male teacher uncomfortable is dangerous territory.

Perhaps children need to be educated more when it comes to making inappropriate remarks.
I know that some children make allegations that are correct, but in a school setting we have to assume that male teachers are not all pervs (unless proven otherwise), and children shouting out "paedo" or comments about looking at legs , are punished and made to fully understand the implications for the teacher and for themselves.

Banning skirts for this reason makes out that all girls are sluts wearing clothes to tempt in all the weak pervy males.
Allowing a girl to make a comment and react by getting all uncomfortable and ban skirts is ridiculous.
What will happen when a teacher is accused of being able to see the shape of a bottom within a pair of trousers? Will the school introduce regulation floor length cloaks?

soapboxqueen · 21/05/2015 13:41

They didn't ban skirts because they made the male staff uncomfortable though did they.

It's far easier to say 'tackle spurious alligations' than to implement without dangerously affecting children's willingness to come forward in genuine cases. In most schools, if an allegation is made, staff are suspended. It is not an easy area to deal with.

Everyone may not agree with how the school have decided to tackle the issue but don't make out that lazy, false allegations don't ruin careers or are easily dealt with.

DuelingFanjo · 21/05/2015 13:45

"the school are avoiding the skirt length issue by moving to trousers. Simple"

they are changing the current uniform because of an issue over short skirts without really thinking about why that might be a pretty uncool and backward thinking to do.

Like I said - it's amazing that for years girls in school were forced to wear a skirt in school and now they are being forced to wear trousers - both for suspect reasons which are based in misogyny.

DuelingFanjo · 21/05/2015 13:46

"What will happen when a teacher is accused of being able to see the shape of a bottom within a pair of trousers?"

already they ARE making rules about the tightness of the trousers. Because presumably women only wear tight trousers to show off their bodies? it's ridiculous.

TheUnwillingNarcheska · 21/05/2015 13:55

My school got round this issue by having a standard school skirt from the uniform supplier, no popping into New Look to find something.

My Mum went to a convent grammar and they had the whole kneel on the floor bit in front of a nun who went along and measured the hem to the floor.

In my school you lined up in silence at secondary (yes very strict) and we walked in single file passed 4 teachers, 2 per side and you were pulled out instantly for breaking any uniform rules. They were also A line skirts so you couldn't roll them up, they looked ridiculous.

My son's secondary has 1500 pupils, I cannot imagine any uniform issues being referred to the HT to deal with. They even have their school logo on their tie meaning you cannot tie it incorrectly. Everyone is the same.

My friend is a secondary school teacher and male. His biggest fear is being falsely accused by a student. He goes to great lengths to avoid it. Very sad.

I cannot see a problem with removing the skirt option for the school in Hull.

LeChien · 21/05/2015 14:06

Unwilling, my dc's school have a standard skirt, but some of the girls (including dd) still roll them up.

BBBuiformfiasco · 21/05/2015 20:47

Just to muddy the waters a bit, (NOTE: this may be long):

The thing that originally got the parents of this school stirred up had very little, if anything, to do with the skirt banning; most of the girls at the school wear trousers anyway, and absolutely nothing to do with protecting male teachers as this wasn’t posed as part of/the problem at the time.

What actually happened was that a letter was sent to the parents last Wednesday stating that, due to the cost of policing the school uniform policy (£25,000 pa was quoted), the school had decided that ALL students would have to wear logo’d trousers- even those who were already conforming to the uniform policy – the vast majority of students - (a weekly average of 8 non-conformists has since been quoted). This was given as a done deal; no prior warning or consultation with parents/students. The letter invited parents to call one of the Head teachers’ representatives to discuss any concerns.

Said trousers would be one style, fit and colour, only available from one supplier, would cost between £16.50 and £19.50 (depending on size) and had to be pre ordered with a 7 week lead time. The supplier wouldn’t actually stock the trousers. The trousers couldn’t be looked at (for quality/fit), nor could they be tried on before purchase.

Naturally, parents were concerned that they faced having to shell out for at least 2 pairs of trousers per child at the school – with a 7 week ord er lead time, tears, dirtiness or loss could not be covered with less than 2 pairs. Trousers that could not be checked out first and if they were anything like the standard range that the school uniform supplier usually provide, would have an eye watering level of synthetic materials as well as being shoddily made – no two “same size” trousers fit the same!

Bridlington doesn’t exactly benefit from even a lower medium socio-economic status: there is a high proportion of unemployment and the few jobs that are available are minimum wage and zero hours contract; many of which are seasonal to boot.
So, £20 for a pair of trousers is no small sweat for most parents! (This on top of the rest of the uniform costs, which, for anyone with a child currently in YR8, would be the 3rd FULL uniform change in as many years by September – initial lay out at YR7, changed again in YR8 due to the school no longer being able to cite it’s “subject specialism” as part of the logo – they didn’t just change the badge, they changed the whole uniform colours, then a change of colours again at YR9 to differentiate between the lower and upper school pupils - BTW: this also includes the PE uniform x 2 (winter and summer)) so a yearly initial outlay of +£350 for each pupil: this being before they grow, lose or damage their uniform mid year etc.

When it was asked of the head what would happen to pupils who still flouted the uniform rules, she admitted that they would be isolated as per current procedure, thus rendering her argument of saving the school £25,000 pa defunct.

Parents queried the price, availability and quality of the enforced trousers – the head backtracked and said that she would investigate “other” suppliers who would be able to source better quality, fit and price options. It was pointed out that these options were already available – even Tesco stock far better quality, fit and price ranges and indeed, the vast majority of the parents used these products already without their child having once been isolated for non-conformity. She said she would take these concerns on board and give feedback at a parent consultation meeting to be scheduled later.

The article hit the papers at the weekend; suddenly the slant was safeguarding - i.e. the male teacher being made to feel uncomfortable when pointing out that a female pupils uniform did not comply to the school standards – this was news to all Bridlington School parents and caused some confusion.

After several complaints to the head teacher’s nominated representative, on Monday, parents received a further letter from the head teacher detailing the majority of concerns along with her responses. The letter ended with parents being invited to attend a parent consultation meeting THE FOLLOWING DAY (Tuesday) being held at 16:30 – not at all strategically scheduled to guarantee minimum turnout....oh no not at all Hmm....funny how when the school wants to promote itself, meetings are scheduled with a 18:00 start time with at least 2 if not 3 weeks notice......and let’s not forget, this new policy will not be enforced until the new school year! So why the hurry.....hey ho....

Anyway, the upshot of the meeting resulted in the head teacher stating that parents could purchase trousers from wherever they pleased BUT they had to be presented to the school prior to being worn by the student. If said trousers met the uniform policy, the parent would be issued with a “badge” to sew onto said trousers to show that they had passed the school inspection – still not sure if there will be a cost associated with the “badge”.
Anyone found altering/not sporting the badge will be sent to the isolation room.
Skirts will not feature at all for girls or boys as of the new school year.

So, bets on how long it will take for some “bright spark” to come up with the idea of purchasing one pair of trousers, presenting them to the school, getting them passed as suitable and being issued the “badge” only to sew said badge onto unsanctioned trousers then pass on the sanctioned pair to their friends for them to do the same........I’m odds on 2/1 less than 10 nano seconds!

BBBuiformfiasco · 21/05/2015 21:25

Please excuse typos and changes of tense/grammar - due to other commitments, my post took several attempts to compose over the day - sorry.
User name should also read BBBuniformfiasco (BBB being the logo for this particular school)...... And Yes , for the trolldar twitchers, I did name change for this post - for obvious reasons.
No, my forename name is not Sarah, nor is my surname Pashley....just for the record. HTH

var123 · 21/05/2015 21:44

That would be pretty annoying, BBBuiformfiasco. I can understand why the parents are fed up (and surely doubting the head's ability to think things through, organise or effectively communicate - all key skills for the rest of her job, i'd have thought!).

DuelingFanjo · 21/05/2015 21:56

The very existence of an 'isolation room' makes my mind boggle.

Chipsahoythere · 21/05/2015 22:01

I'm a teacher and I do hate girls wearing short short skirts. There are some things I don't need or wish to see! I'm all for women having the right to wear what they like, but if a school has a uniform policy then it ought to be abided by.

However we do not have a specific school supplier as our parents would not all be able to afford to shop there. That does then mean that you get some turning up in ridiculous clothes!!

BBBuiformfiasco · 21/05/2015 22:06

var quite – no consultation, no regard to the impact on the parents (cost wise) and even more insult to injury when it’s revealed that only an average of 8 of almost 2,000 students per week are sent to the “isolation room” for flouting the uniform regulations, of which, ANY change of uniform would never alter the situation has already been admitted (by the head)..........exasperation doesn’t even begin to cover it!

BBBuiformfiasco · 21/05/2015 22:32

chipshaythere im sure short short skirts are the bane of many teacher (male or female) and parent alike, but as already stated, there are VERY few students at this particular school who wear skirts, let alone short ones – only an average of 8 students per week were sent to the isolation room for flouting uniform regulations – some may have been wearing short skirts, some may have been wearing skinny jeans, some may have been wearing shoes with non black coloured soles and/or flashes, some may not have had their full uniform – polo shirts AND jumpers MUST be worn during assembly (regardless of weather conditions), winter and summer PE kits MUST be available to wear EVERY DAY, not dependent on weather conditions – failure to meet any of the above WILL result in the pupil being sent to the isolation room......you don’t have to be Einstein to work out that, on average, at least 6 pupils on any given day might be sent to the isolation room for non-conformity of uniform regulations even before the length (or lack of) skirt or style of trouser even enters the equation...and we’re not talking E=MC2 here either....

BBBuiformfiasco · 21/05/2015 23:02

Daul - well, I guess they HAVE to do something to enforce the rules – I suppose, giving out detentions means that the parent's HAVE to be informed 24 hours prior, thus giving a chance for confrontation between parent, pupil and/or teacher/head.

Sending pupils home for flouting the uniform rules doesn’t mean that the parent is ever made aware that the child attempted to enter school wearing non-regulation attire – child could easily bin/intercept any letters sent home...so no guarantee that changes will be made.

One of the “options” posed to the head re regulating/enforcing uniform rules was that any pupil attending school wearing non regulation clothing would have to report to reception and be issued with regulation gear: this was rejected as “bullying”/”marking out” the person........whereas “isolation” wasn’t.........................Absolute minefield –wouldn’t want to be a head let alone teacher in today’s world!

Just looking at another thread re a TA getting a warning for giving a primary school (6 year old) a cuddle when she became distressed after witnessing an animal being run over during break time gives a small gimps of a school professional life these days....Sad

tobysmum77 · 22/05/2015 07:30

When I used to be a teacher I don't remember a single girl ever wearing a skirt (even though they were allowed) Confused weird that. Still had constant arguments about uniform. Jeans/ trainers/ no tie the list goes on...

unlucky83 · 22/05/2015 10:01

BB interesting - DDs high school used to be terrible, there were 'rules' but no-one followed them - think black skinny jeans and mainly black - odd multicoloured - hoodies (although as someone pointed out they were more or less all wearing a uniform by default!) .
They all were supposed to wear blazers - literally no-one did - a parent with a pupil already at the school told me not to waste my money on one -her child had worn one for less than a week. And as a parent enforcing it you didn't want your child to feel like the odd one out. I think the school and parents have to work together.
New HT wanted to tighten it up -appealed to the parents, put a good argument forward for wearing uniform (security etc) and then the threat - they had a stash of regulation clothes and anyone flouting uniform would be made to wear some 'provided by the school'...and it worked...still pretty lax but they do more or less stick to the school colours now, no hoodies and wear blazers.

fortyfide · 23/05/2015 11:29

The many post here have been an education. Thanks.

When I was young us boys would wait impatiently to get into
"longs" meaning long trousers. Ah yes, I remember it well

OP posts:
alibubbles · 23/05/2015 15:13

Our local school parents had to fight for girls to be able to wear trousers, though many didn't want to. My DD would have hated having to wear trousers, she was a dress girl until 11. I had to buy legging specially for brownie camp as she didn't have any.

I think a lot of the trousers girls wear are ridiculous, skimpy, low on the hips, they look awful, and as for girls wearing boys shorts, I just think that is bizarre, as they are really short!

Pico2 · 23/05/2015 23:27

I think that part of the problem of skirts in schools is that by rolling them up they can go up and down like a yo-yo. Unlike wearing a non-regulation item, which only takes one teacher to spot and deal with, a short skirt might be "dealt with" by 5 or more teachers in a day and still rolled back up.

maskingtherealme · 24/05/2015 22:10
  1. In the world of WORK, lots of people wear uniforms. No complaints. If you want your child to get used to the world of work, start by insisting they follow the school rules and wear the uniform prescribed by the school.
  1. This isn't about 'human rights' or 'sexism' as some parents claim - the ones who complain are usually the ones who have nothing better to do with their time, encourage promiscuity in their teenage girls (by ALLOWING and even BUYING their daughter skirts that are laughable as skirts and are in fact large belts) and love to sound off - nothing better than seeing their complaint or their mug across tabloids and news channels.
  1. Trousers need to have the logo. Nothing new there in the world of 'schools'. At my (as a child) Outstanding High School, we have to wear logos on our jumpers (as do nearly 100% of other schools - primary, infants, juniors, middle, high, secondary, lower, upper, academies!) and if you don't want to buy from the school provider (like my parents), buy elsewhere and do this magical thing called STITCH ON THE SCHOOL LOGO.

Seriously, parents have nothing better to do with their time (or worry about) than a school, friggin' uniform!?!?!?!?

(PS: I KNOW the school well. I know the pupils - some - VERY well, and thus the parents. Perhaps worry more about your child's academic progress and their future as an adult rather than what they wear at the age of 15???)

DuelingFanjo · 24/05/2015 23:06

"encourage promiscuity in their teenage girls (by ALLOWING and even BUYING their daughter skirts that are laughable as skirts and are in fact large belts)"

Oh please, so short skirts encourage promescuity! Even if they do, it there a problem with female promescuity?

admission · 25/05/2015 20:50

This seems to be a situation that has got completely out of hand but there is one question that I would ask and that is where was the governing body in all this.
Did the head teacher consult the governing body before making such a decision? If not why not when it clearly was a strategic decision or more correctly became a strategic decision after the school created the problem and it became far more wide spread than just uniform.

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