Major upset in Yorkshire over school insisting on trousers for girls

[fortyfide]

Are trousers a rarity in schools
And do unifroms get changed frequently at great expense?

"Any child who falsely or jokily accuses a teacher of anything should be disciplined."

I'm not sure about that actually. I suppose there needs to be consequences, but we don't want to create an atmosphere where children are scared or feel unable to make a complaint - we're just starting to come out of that. A HT whose reaction to a complaint was to discipline the child would be a big backward step.

I do absolutely understand why teachers would want to abolish the thing (short skirts) that leads to a lot of "joking" accusations though

My DCs school did this years ago. They had all the usual problems with skirts. They just said it was more practical for modern school life.

Add message | Report | Message poster Getdownfromtherethisinstant Wed 20-May-15 13:18:19
'It doesn't say he was uncomfortable about the short skirt does it? I read it that he was uncomfortable at being accused of looking at the girl's legs when he told her her skirt was too short.'

Perhaps then individual teachers should not be left to tell individual pupils that their skirts are too short? Perhaps these things should be handled on a more general level, out of the classroom, by the head teachers in communication with the parents and then the enforcement of it be directed by the head.

I agree that anyone who makes joke accusations should be disciplined. It just adds to the "no smoke without fire" school of thought.

Given the male teacher was told he should be looking at the girls legs, I am not surprised male teachers would be uncomfortable pulling female students up on their inappropriate attire.

It's not that they are uncomfortable about the skirts but that they are uncomfortable about female students making joke accusations of inappropriate attention from them.

Talking about females being forced to dress so that they don't make men uncomfortable is irrelevant in this case.

Or perhaps female students shouldn't make inappropriate jokes about the attention of male teachers.

Hmmm - thing is I have just been into DD1 high school - they are quite easy going about uniform and girls can wear skirts or trousers...DD1 usually wears trousers (black skinny jeans -they get away with until they fade)
Any whilst I was waiting for DD I saw lots of pupils go past - I can't actually comment on the boys because non stood out... but the girls...
A few wearing really short skirts - one had to pull hers down twice as she walked less than 50 m, another it had rucked up on one cheek - you could see her pants.
Two wearing leggings stood out - one they were thin ones - you could see her pants -I actually felt a bit sorry for her unless it was deliberate , the other (and I know this one's parent and they seem quite strict so I was ) was wearing leggings - not as thin but skin tight - from the back I thought she was wearing a thong (no VPL) and I could see the crack of her arse but when she turned round I think she wasn't wearing pants...think camels toe... it was a bit ...yuk...
I'm a woman and I noticed...I don't think they were appropriately dressed - but can't see how a teacher (of either sex) could pick the girls up on this...
So I can see the trouser rule might prevent the too short skirts - but what about the 'not tight'? ...I can see male teachers could be open to the same accusations...

'That couldn't work. You have to deal with uniform infringements on the spot'

So... The teacher sends the child to the head teacher who deals with it on the spot. How is that not workable.

If the length of a skirt really matters then you put the time and resources into dealing with it. If male teachers are uncomfortable with the reaction they receive for enforcing a rule about skirt length then you don't let male teachers deal with it. If there are that many false accusations flying about then you protect your male staff from it by not putting them in that position.

What you shouldn't do is enforce a whole uniform changed based upon a person's discomfort over enforcing the existing rule or a pupil's attempts to manipulate the rule. That's just silly.

What if the head is also a man who gets accused of looking at the girl's legs, in private, in his office? But, yes, mostly it wouldn't work because we want our heads to be slightly better employed than dealing with skirt lengths all day.

So... The teacher sends the child to the head teacher who deals with it on the spot. How is that not workable.

How is a male teacher telling a female student that they need to see the headteacher about a uniform infringement any different to them telling the pupil that they have inappropriate uniform on? either way, the male teacher can be accused by the pupil of looking at her legs.

The fault here does lie with the female pupil(s). By accusing a male teacher of looking at their legs, they are the ones making it an issue.

If male teachers are uncomfortable with the reaction they receive for enforcing a rule about skirt length then you don't let male teachers deal with it

Victim blaming...? If a female was experiencing some kind of accusations from men in the workplace, would you be suggesting that they don't do that part of their job? Would you be suggesting it's their problem?

'But, yes, mostly it wouldn't work because we want our heads to be slightly better employed than dealing with skirt lengths all day.'

Maybe it would be much better, then, if schools stopped making such a big issue out of skirt length?

You couldn't pay me enough to be a male teacher in a school. One of my colleagues is an amazing teacher, but he has to be on guard so much more so than a female teacher does. For example, first day back and school and the kids run to give you a hug. I can give them a hug, but he has to find a way to avoid it in case someone reads something inappropriate and makes a complaint. He can't even put his arm around an upset pupil without it being misconstrued. One day he was playing basketball after school with a big group of students and one girl crashed in to him and they fell over. That's all it took for someone to make a comment about him 'touching a child'. Fortunately there were about fifty people who saw the event and were willing to say what had happened. He's a phenomenal teacher, but it's exhausting for him and he's thinking of changing careers which will be a real shame for the school.

Sometimes it seems like the entire world only cares about what girls/women wear or how they look.

for my children and in particular my girls, I would like their conversations with their teachers to be about academic subjects/intellectual interests etc. not skirt length.

I have no problem with a school enforcing a dress code that is similar to the work world - especially for senior pupils. Other than that who cares?

if I were a male teacher, I wouldn't comment on a female student's dress full stop. Too fraught with issues on both sides. If I felt a student was deliberately showing off flesh in class, I'd go to the principal as this would be a serious issue.

If I felt a student was accidentally showing off flesh in class, I'd go to the principal or nearest female teacher and ask her to deal with it. No earthly way as a man would I talk to a teenage girl about inappropriate dress or showing flesh etc. I doubt many men would do it in a work context either - they'd go to HR and ask for help.

My youngest is 13 - young for her age and not an older looking teen but she has a problem with the dress code in her school (she likes to wear shorts in the spring/summer term). Her attitude is why do my legs make a man uncomfortable? I agree. Most men wouldn't even notice and even if they do, surely they control themselves like every one else in the world should.

So, you think it is acceptable that a male teacher has constraints put on him with respect to what he can or can't do as part of his job?

Her attitude is why do my legs make a man uncomfortable?

Irrelevant in this case because what made the male teacher uncomfortable was the "jokey" accusation from the female pupil that he was looking at her legs.

What is her attitude towards female teachers commenting on skirts that are too short?

I think changing the uniform so that everyone is equal is a good idea.

To get round the problem of male teachers having to speak to teenage girls about their clothing, the school could implement a daily assessment of girls who may be in violation of the on the knee rule.
All the teacher would have to do is tell the girls concerned that he's referring them to the assessor who would be one of the sterner female SLT.

Teaching girls to treat their bodies respectfully will stand them in good stead when they are in their late teens. TBH parents should be doing it.

The ridiculously short skirts girls wear at my (mixed) school make ME feel uncomfortable and I'm a straight woman. Enforcing the rules on skirt length is the way forward really but it can be embarrassing to do so for male staff and also can seem a bit biased against girls so I can see that both sexes being asked to wear the same regulation trousers just removes the problem altogether. Quite a good call.

All the teacher would have to do is tell the girls concerned that he's referring them to the assessor who would be one of the sterner female SLT.

So, you think the solution is to put restraints on what the male teachers can do...?

that's a strange way to twist it soupdragon. If they are (understandably) uncomfortable telling teenage girls that they can see too much flesh then this solution would stop the thinly veiled sexual allegations.

They are uncomfortable with being accused of staring at teenage girls legs. Accused by the girls.

If a male was causing a female to feel uncomfrotable at work and making what amounts to serious accusations (albeit jokey), what would you suggest? That the female stop doing that part of their job?

Can you give an example? I can't imagine it.