All children in England will be expected to know up to their 12 times table when they leave primary school, the government has announced

[CandODad]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31079515

Am I the only one that doesn't see how this could be a good thing? All it would achieve is more schools being forced to academies and even then how would that ensure 100% attainment in the years to come?

Yes I think school should go back to having children recite tables as a regular exercise but to demand 100% seems unattainable? What if the school had children that were not capable of memorising data like that?

Not sure what happens to academies that don't achieve the target, do they return to local authority control!! I don't think that will happen.
It's politics , pure and simple. Nothing whatsoever to do with driving up standards, its just a way to ensure primary schools ( which are "lagging behind" in the academy stakes!) become academies.

Don't they need to know it already?

Dd is 8 and knows half of it and most of her tables.

Am I the only one that doesn't see how this could be a good thing?

Years ago it was taken for granted that children would know up to at least their 12 times table on leaving primary school. It is still taken for granted in many other countries. Do we really want to accept falling standards? Don't our children deserve better?

we used to be expected to know these by the end of year five at school. we did fuck all grammar though.

For the majority of children yes it's fine (and many can do 12x tables earlier). Yes we need to have higher expectations, but to threaten heads with the sack if they happen to have a few children who can't achieve this for two years running is mad.

I have children in my class with global development delays, foetal alcohol syndrome, autistic spectrum disorder, ADHD, specific learning difficulties, children with English as a second ( or third) language who have been in the country less than six months, looked after children with horrendous backgrounds. To assume that each and everyone can achieve these "targets" is to seriously underestimate the difficulties they face on a day to day basis. To threaten a school with forced academisation because they can't is downright tyrannical.

I am shocked that there could even be any question as to whether or not this policy is "good"! It is a disgrace and a disservice to children that so many pupils can leave primary school without having acquired basic maths and literacy skills. The new proposal seems to set out a clear target, and one that should be attainable by all children other than, perhaps, some with special needs (for whom i would expect any sensible policy to have special targets)

Fine Abriata but she did not say that. She said EVERY child.
Not every child who is capable of it.

Unless there are genuinely exceptional circumstances, I would have thought every pupil would be easily capable of this - and indeed had not realised the expected standard was lower. And I have had DC in primary schools from 2002 onwards. I'm pretty sure gat Al, tables to 12 were achieved somewhere between year 3 and year 5.

Surely knowing tables and number bonds fluently means the demands of arithmetic do not slow down mathematical development?

Years ago there were 12 pence to a shilling and we measured in inches so knowing the 12 times table was useful.

@mrz

Indeed. As our counting system is base ten, then up to ten times tables makes sense. Eleven times is a special case as they are so easy, but without shillings and pence why 12 times?

Auntie, the expected standard is not lower but NM wants to specifically test these elements of the new NC. So they were on the curriculum already but you could achieve 'the expected standard' by being good at everything else but still have holes in these elements when it comes to the tests.

From the sound bite it's hard to know if there will be sensible exclusions or not.

I know my DS left Y6 with a level 5 in maths but without knowing his tables off by heart.

It is and was a disgrace.

This is in the new curriculum so hardly news.
At my dcs school, they already had taken steps last year to ensure that the children were on board with time tables and all the children in dc2 class (Y5) are expected to know them.

Whether there is any point is a different issue. IMO learning the time tables up to 10 is a necessity. How do you do any multiplication or division if you don't know them???
The 11 and 12 time table should be deduced from the rest.
As I understand, this is coming from the time we were using shillings etc and you needed to know your 12 time table. But as we don't use them anymore, I'm about it.

Both my eldest dc left y3 at their state primary able to do times tables up to 12. Not just recite them - they had to be able to instantly answer times tables questions - 60 random questions in 2 minutes. My eldest is now at prep school where the dc are expected to be able to do this by the end of y4. I can't see why it should be controversial to expect kids to do this by the end of primary. Times tables are stepping stones in a lot of the maths problems dc have to tackle in ks2 and ks3 so allowing a child to leave primary without fluency in their tables is setting them up for a relentless struggle with maths all the way to gcse

I don't think anyone would disagree that, for the majority of children, learning tables is simply a given. The disagreement comes over the expectation that EVERY child should be able to do so. There are children in mainstream schools with serious SEN needs that means they simply cannot learn all their times tables, perform long division and read novels. To suggest otherwise is wrong

Spaniel - True. But equally there are currently children, without serious SEN etc, who leave school unable to read a novel or who don't know their times tables who could have learnt them if school had put more effort into it.

I know this from personal experience. School do label children with SEN and then lower their expectations of them.
the vast majority of children with SEN - including dyslexia - should leave primary reading, writing, and knowing their times tables.

You might not. But most certainly some teachers do.

There is no question schools could go better.

And I am absolutely sure with this test they will do better. Just like the Y1 phonics check, which so many teachers argued wasn't necessary, has vastly improved the teaching of reading in KS1.

"Schools label children with SEN" and then lower standards for them.

If you believe this, you are - frankly - deranged. It's the equivalent of believing in a Roswell cover-up and the moon landings being faked.

Schools are inclusive these says. There should be children in every class that are going to find it a real struggle to learn all the tables - unless your children's school is one with a terrible reputation for special needs provision.

I'm appalled by this.

I also think that people who are blithely saying it's fine are somehow able to 'not see' the SEND pupils in their children's class. Which is a bit sad, i.m.o.

I'm not deranged - I'm telling you my personal experience of having DC on the SEN register.

School most certainly had low expectations of them.

Schools don't label a child with an SEN: you need a whole raft of experts to agree for a proper diagnosis. It isn't a conspiracy.
I am sorry that your child's school experience has been grim. All I can say is that there are many, many schools thst are VERY ambitious for their SEND pupils.

I knew my 12 x tables by the end of primary...oh 40 years' ago. I'm dyslexic so it was a bit of hard work. But once it's all embedded it's rather useful.

I was shocked to discover that only up to 10 x was expected til recently. And I'm no fan of the current government!

Schools do label children with SEN. It is totally up to them who goes On The SEN register.

You most certainly don't need an expert labelling your child for your child to be on the SEN register.

And the reverse is also true. If your child is doing well academically school won't necessarily put them on the SEN register even if they do have a label of something.

I have had both of these things happen to my DC.

School thought they had high expectations of my DC. But they didn't. They thought if they were on interventions then they were doing everything they could and therefore if my DC didn't learn it was because they weren't capable.

Which wasn't true.

My DCs school would absolutely claim they had high expectations for my DC. It was total BS.

I knew my 1 to 12 tables by the time I was in year 3. My mum gave me 20p every time I managed to recite one with no mistakes... 50p for the "hard" ones, 6, 7, and 8 x tables

I am not exaggerating when I say that I use mental arithmetic every single day. My tables are essential. I'm not a "professional" like a lawyer, doctor, highly paid person. I run my own business. I don't need a calculator to work out costs or change.

Do you have foetal alcohol syndrome?