All children in England will be expected to know up to their 12 times table when they leave primary school, the government has announced

[CandODad]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31079515

Am I the only one that doesn't see how this could be a good thing? All it would achieve is more schools being forced to academies and even then how would that ensure 100% attainment in the years to come?

Yes I think school should go back to having children recite tables as a regular exercise but to demand 100% seems unattainable? What if the school had children that were not capable of memorising data like that?

*because.

For those who are struggling to understand... It's a bit like being the manager of a department and being told that everyone in your department would have to do a test on whatever it is you do each year. EVERY single team member must pass each year, even the one who cries and panics at doing tests, the one whose husband has just had an affair and left her, the one whose son is self harming due to bullying, the one with dyslexia, the one with anxiety, the one who couldn't sleep due to exam stress and crashed their car on the way in. If they don't all pass (EVERY single one) then you will be replaced as their boss and your department taken over by a private company.

Even though 95% of them could probably have passed it after being in your department for 6 months, there will be a couple that won't, for whatever reason. How would you feel about them? Would you want them on your team? Would you resent them if you knew-no matter how much help you gave them-they just wouldn't pass?

Would this influence which department you chose to work in? One without anyone with SEN maybe? Would it influence you when you interviewed someone who had a history of anxiety? Stress? Dyslexia?

I can see all sorts of problems. But it's just great that some of your children know their tables in reception-I'm sure that makes all those people with SEN feel so much better.

I'm so angry about this.

Maybe a focus on reading comprehension wouldn't go amiss.

Or even social skills?

Academic sucess does not always lead to a successful adult life. Conversely a child who does not know all their tables is not necessarily destined to be a failure in life.

We need to decide what we hope to achieve before making impossible demands on teachers. Nicky has to remember that her old school is not representative of the UK. Not all children grow up with the advantages she had. In general state primaries are not selective. Even if 99% of children are capable of her goals, they still have to do the work. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

I just keep thinking that the reporting of this is somehow amiss. It just doesn't make any sense. Surely kids with relevant statements of special educational needs will be held to a different standard. And of course, kids are people, they get muddled and make the odd mistake.

I think the goals are good. Write a short story, know times tables, etc. And appropriate to the majority of children.

But all this language of "must" and "100%" and forcing schools into academy status sounds deranged.

Yes, you are all right that the way it is presented (100% of children must know the time tables to 12 no matter what or else) is not a good thing.

I think the title of the OP was not clear enough, that's why you keep getting people posting about how they or their children knew all the times tables before they left primary school.

It's very easy to teach a bright child the times tables even at a young age (I've done it) if there a no other factors involved (SEN, dyslexia, etc). But a different story when you are trying to teach a child with different circumstances (been there too).

So I understand where the teachers are coming from and feel for them.

If this is really going to happen, I don't think they will get away with no making allowances for children that have SEN. I'm sure a lot of people would complain about that, and would get to the news as well.

But I suppose, even children who are average and bright could make mistakes on the day of the exam for whatever reasons, so 100% seems really harsh.
Wouldn't the teacher assessment be taken into account as well as the test result just like they do with the SATs?

As a parent I agree with RollonSummer - this measure in relation to merely one child in a school (regardless of disability/ family circumstances/ illness) failing to pass the proposed maths test is Draconian and will only pressure staff & pupils.

Far better to use the budget for this new magic maths test in a targeted way for improved resources/ training/ equipment to support mathematics at schools which are failing >10% of pupils (6% being 2 out of 3 pupils).

Start with the obviously troubled schools where say for example 50% or more pupils fail to achieve NC L4 in maths and then move on from there.

Of course this would require some form of centralized control of schools - and of course the present coalition has rather destroyed the LEA model of local control of education with their academies schemes.

Philosophically the present government prefers to view education as an expensive service which is best 'outsourced' thereby shifting blame for any inadequacies/ problems on 'private companies' (aka academies) and away from local or national government.

Meanwhile they micromanage 'outcomes' by setting targets without specifying how teachers are meant to get their pupils to arrive at such targets (allegedly the bonus of such an approach is this is giving teachers freedom to teach as they/ local area desire) and this government feels the best solution is to set up a guillotine whereby HTs/ Senior Management are removed if targets aren't met. This is of course, regardless, of what this pressure means for morale.

A struggling school may need staff changes - but automatically presuming it's the head's fault seems rather a knee-jerk reaction. Why children fail to achieve NC L4 has been a persistent problem in the UK and one many governments have failed to solve with a wide range of initiatives. Perhaps the solution is to work out what actually works across all schools of varying socio-economic mixes in a community/ region and then roll that policy/ procedure out nation-wide.

At present it isn't a level playing field - some schools are well equipped, have amazing resources, on-line maths homework/ tuition schemes and excellent teaching practice. Other schools are less well provisioned. Throwing money at the problem isn't the solution - but there is a need to level the playing field and maybe schools with persistent low achievement need better resources, better training, more attractive salaries (education loan forgiveness schemes?) for teachers/ after-school support for further tuition for struggling pupils, etc.... to level the playing field for those children. And maybe as a society we need to see that investment (because it will cost money) as an investment for the whole society's greater good.

We've had decades of a persistent low-achieving cohort of ~20% of pupils - so whatever else what has been attempted to date hasn't worked - and the likelihood is another test isn't really going to solve the problem either.

sorry that should have been 6% is 2 out of 30 pupils (average class size).

it's not just DC with SEN that may struggle with times tables - DD1 is in the final year of her maths degree and STILL doesn't know her times tables. She's lucky enough to be able to work them out quickly (although did write some of the trickier ones out down the side of exam papers ), but despite her top maths grades all the way through school, she'd have been the pupil who triggered the sacking of the head. Just because of not being able to learn one particular thing in a particular way.

It's just ludicrous. It's not possible to make all 11 year olds in the country know their times tables by fiat.

The result of what was published in the papers would be:

1. That nearly every school becomes an academy overnight.
2. That school heads all change places like the mad hatter's tea party (because when every head is replaced, where are all the new heads going to come from?)
3. Teachers will be degraded (saying "moral will plumet" just seems like an understatement.)
4. Students will find school an overwrought and unpleasant place to be.

I assume the powers that be desire number 1. And now, they will get it. I suspect that they haven't thought through number 2. And that they simply don't care about about number 3 or 4.

WeeBirdie, yes she knows all her timestable thoroughly. I mix them up just to make sure and we are now doing divisions which relates to the timestable and she's fine with that.

I don't know the full facts with Nicky Morgan's proposal but I'm just saying with a little help from parents children should know all their timestable before they start secondary school unless they have SENs which I would have thought this would be taken into consideration when evaluating the results?

It is ludicrous to think there are enough good Head Teachers to go round. Ofsted is already saying that 9 out of the 10 worst performing LA's, with regard to school performance, are in the North of England. There is clearly a shortage of talent to lead schools in the LA's they name. Leadership makes a huge difference because it is the school leaders who are identifying and rectifying poor teaching. It requires good leadership to recognise the problems in the first place. Therefore there will be huge problems with implementing any policy regarding schools being academised. Also, plenty of academy secondary schools are in the Requires Improvement category. I accept this is not a primary problem, but recruiting a whole new raft of headteachers with aporopriate skills will be impossible, in any sector.

I know a child with discalculia. Learning tables and manipulating numbers is a real problem and has led to serious demotivation. Yr 4 and is still unable to recall 2 and 10 X tables! This child is an avid reader and good at writing. However, this is not recognised by the school and there is no statement in place. There will be a rush to diagnose this now!!!!

Arse of a policy. DS1 is a bright, quick, smart lad but I will be amazed if he manages to meet that target.

It takes him a hundred times the effort to remember his tables (at 8, he can't even remember the order for the days of the week - adhd though poor memory may be something else), and frankly, while I know tables are really useful, I'd much rather his teacher's effort went into helping him with the skills to work these things out. For him, that will be infinitely more useful, and a much more valuable use of her's and his time.

I hope Nicky Morgan clarifies if and how discretion may be exercised, so that children like my son aren't the downfall of hardworking heads.

As for using this as a means to convert LEA schools to academies, I'm yet to be convinced of the value of this at all (if anyone can point out that academies are better at maths then please do), and very much dislike my children's curriculum being used as a political tool.

PastSellByDate and rollonsummer, you both talk a lot of sense, can you be in charge please instead?

YY! MillyMollyMama I think there will be a stampede to statement more children.

I think I now know what is going on.

I was listening to radio4 today in the car while running errands. There was some chat around academies. The key point was: Academies answer directly to the Secretary of State for Education.

I think all this goofy stuff the conservatives have been doing for the past few years is some sort of elaborate triangulation. Instead of coming out and telling us that all schools will now report directly to central government. They are achieving this end through series of painful and awkward steps that they hope no one will notice.

IMHO, that is what all this is about.

What will that actually mean for schools though?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30410097

Not a thing rollonsummer it's all just pre election sabre rattling

Yes, I suspect you're right! I need to stop getting so cross about it!

It just annoys me that any time education is mentioned in the press, the implication seems to be that children don't learn because teachers are lazy and feckless. Do other jobs get this? I don't seem to see nurses implicated as being lazy?

Have you decided who you're going to vote for, Mrz?

GPs get a good bashing on MN, nurses less so. Although there's a pretty good NHS bashing thread going on in AIBU. And a few weeks ago a poster decided the bed crisis had been made up by hospitals for some sort of nefarious purpose. Which came as a bit of a surprise given the horrific day I'd had at work that day.

We need to have high expectations for our children.

My Two DD's is 5 & 7 years old and know all the tables randomly. Not gifted in any way just extra playing with numbers.

I cannot understand how schools can fail to teach this over 6 years of primary, Special cases excepted.

They learn them in primary school already, but maybe they will spend more time doing it now. Children are encouraged to learn them at home. I don't see how teaching children their times tables can ever be a bad thing.

It's possible that if you had bothered to read either the thread or the article linked in the OP you would understand better.

Most schools don't fail to teach it wizard which is why the rhetoric is laughable ... just electioneering

Most schools fail to teach all their pupils their times tables.

The question is whether some of those who don't learn them could be taught or not.

And that is pretty much what Nikki said on the interview I heard with her.

And I'm absolutely sure she's right. Some of the pupils who leave primary could have learnt them if school has spent more time in them.

This is certainly my experience.