No sense of where my child is in the class

[Enjoyingmycoffee1981]

I was very anxious about my August born son starting school this year. As it turns out, it has been fine. I am actually gob smacked at his progress. Before school, he knew how handful of letters, no sounds and blotchy counting.

Now he is reading!!!! Not everything obviously, not even close, but if he doesn't recognise the word by sight, he can sound it out and then gets it.

I would love to know how this compares with other children in his class. I want to know if he is doing well for a summer born, or if he is doing well. Period.

I have asked the teacher and she said, yes he is doing very well, but it is a large busy school and that was the sum total of our conversation.

So I would be keen on your thoughts.

He is 4.5, he recognises all letters of the alphabet, he can sound them all out, he can identify a number of words without needing to sound them out e.g. It, is, the, and, go, on, no etc. He can read most 3/4 letter words by sounding them out.

It is this doing ok, or is this just doing ok for a summer born?

Thanks v much

I am fully entitled to my opinion willbeatjanuaryblues and in my opinion chocolate wombat hasn't given a reason why she thinks this information would be of use. The argument seems to be ...because I want to know ...

"No one will care for my child more than me and her father..."

And?

I see what Clam is saying. If a parent asked me where their child sat in the class, I would translate this to them wanting to know how their child compares attainment wise. So would offer information about how their attainment level compared with national expectations. Most parents would be happy with this I would imagine. If they push to know class rankings I would explain that I wasn't comfortable providing that information because it is breaching the confidentiality of other children, but they could discuss with the headteacher.

The argument seems to be ...because I want to know ...

But from your point of view - that's all the argument that needs to be....

Staggered after all this your refusing to accept, I give up.

If they push to know class rankings I would explain that I wasn't comfortable providing that information because it is breaching the confidentiality of other children

.

Several teachers here agree with that viewpoint - you are not entitled to know the attainment of other children. It will not help your child to do so. Lots of better information does.

Welcome the Holy Trinity.

Op, you can see the issues here, you really do have fight your own corner and if you see any other threads (like the one where a lady has discovered her year 3 child can't do full stops and is behind in Maths), you will realize you need to keep on top of things and don't let teachers fob you off and be obstructive ^ as above

I'm quite happy to tell parents where their child sits in class ... Anywhere they like as long as they work

Willbeatjanuaryblues perhaps you can explain how knowing her child's position in class would have helped the poster who's child doesn't know how to use full stops?

It's your opinion that not sharing this information is obstructive - my school share every single scrap of information we can that we think may help your child, but we wouldn't ever discuss other children's attainment with you.

Since the DfE themselves ring every last drop of what they deem useful out of the data available, you might want to ask yourself why even they don't either create or ask for a list of children ranked individually.

Holy Trinity? Because three (or actually more than three of us) strangers on the internet who have never met before, have each taken issue with the points you raise?

As I said earlier, we used to publish the range of attainment for the cohort in maths, reading and writing. We've actually had a few complaints from parents of children at the extremes of those ranges, saying that it was clear that the particularly low/high level clearly identified their child.

However, it's a moot point now, as the new system is a whole new ball game.

So Mrz and Feenie, are you saying that you ONLY tell parents things that are a statutory requirement at parents evening and only things which are officially recorded? That if anone asks about anything else at all, you simply won't tell them, even if you know. So for example, you won't answer questions about;

• friendship issues
• extra curricular involvement
• effort levels
• kindness/thoughtfulness/unkindness/selfishness
• how they interact with male/female members of staff
• confidence levels

I would say there is no official requirement to record or comment on some of those, but parents may well be interested. And they may be interested in where their child sits in the class. I have never said a parent should expect to be told or a teacher to give a specific place in the class. I have said that as a teacher, I refer to children being in the top few, upper half, around the middle, lower half. I don't feel this is in anyway giving away secret or confidential information about other children. Again I question this reply that some teachers choose not to give the information because they believe it won't aid the education of the child. I really don't think you can know if that is true or not, because parents ask for all kinds of reasons. A child could have very low self esteem and the parents trying to get to the bottom of it. Knowing how they are doing relative to others in the class (bearing in mind that even small children often know this, regardless of whether they are set,mon tables or whatever) may give some explanation for the low self esteem and this information may help the parent tackle the issue - surely of both educational and wider significance. But you as teacher cannot know exactly why the parent wants to know and I think you go beyond your remit to refuse because YOU don't think it is useful information and I think it is pedantry to refuse the information because there is no official requirement to give it. Nit is not only pedantry, but inconsistent pedantry, because I'm sure you DO answer lots of other questions which are not official requirements either. Goodness if I encountered teachers who only spoke like robots giving officially required information and nothing more, and who made judgements about if questions I asked were valid or not valid, I would be horrified. I am the parent and they are the teacher and we should be able to have an open dialogue. All of what has been said here, raises concerns for me far beyond the issue of asking about where a child sits in terms of the class, but to the wider issue of teachers acting as some kind of filter deciding what is a suitable question and what isn't - some kind of information police, but off their own individual backs. I would like to speak to teachers who think practically and engage with parents - who don't just think about what has to be officially reported and no more, but see each child and family and recognise that people want to know different things and so can be told different things, on top of the basics that have to be covered. I don't want pedants nor people who want to censor my questions.

Chocolate wombat you haven't been told that some teachers won't tell you because it isn't useful what you have been told us that teachers don't discuss anything relating to other pupils
The fact that you can't seem to find any useful purpose for requesting the information is telling

Feenie, I understand that the gov dont want individual rankings. They are interested in the bigger macro picture of progress of large groups - there is comparison, of high, low and average performing students' progress, but not of individuals. There is also gov info published comparing absolute outcomes not just progress at the end of Key Stages, at GCSE and A levels, of schools - for comparative purposes. However of course a parent is interested in their own child and that child's context - which is often the class. So the parental comparison is a bit more micro, but actually not a million miles from what the gov does on a larger scale. The gov wants to know comparisons between schools and differ t types of pupils. Parents want comparisons between their own child and the class or nationals expectation.
The fact that the gov does not gather individuals' info does not mean individual comparisons (or other things that parents want to know, but which aren't recorded by gov) are not valuable.

chocolate are you deliberately missing the point?

If you want to know how your child is doing compared to national averages, then fine. That should tell you all you need to know. If you want to know so that you can work out whether he's cleverer than all his mates, then that's a different thing.

And of course a teacher will discuss extra curricular involvement, effort levels, kindness/thoughtfulness/unkindness/selfishness, how they interact with male/female members of staff, confidence levels and so forth. But then THAT DOESN'T AFFECT OTHER PUPILS' CONFIDENTIALITY.

*So Mrz and Feenie, are you saying that you ONLY tell parents things that are a statutory requirement at parents evening and only things which are officially recorded? That if anone asks about anything else at all, you simply won't tell them, even if you know. So for example, you won't answer questions about;

• friendship issues
• extra curricular involvement
• effort levels
• kindness/thoughtfulness/unkindness/selfishness
• how they interact with male/female members of staff
• confidence levels*

Of course a teacher would discuss those things at Parent consultations.

Parents don't need to know how their child is doing compared to the others in their class though. Surely knowing where they are compared to national expectations is much more useful to you?

Mrz, I have listed on more than one occasion why knowing the place a child has in the class (roughly) is valuable. I have made specific lists more than once.
And you have said frequently that you don't think the information is useful, as well as the fact that you don't make comparisons. Have you continually made these points as 2 separate, unrelated points when my lengthy posts have clearly been expressing BOTH why I think the information is useful AND why it can be given without interfering with the privacy of other specific individuals.
I think I would probably find a parents evening appointment with you frustrating. I get the sense that you enjoy being frustrating, from the way you have and have not answered questions during this thread, have stated points without clearly relating them to what is being discussed and been so rigid. I would like to feel teachers would respond to me and my child more flexibly and work hard to answer my questions rather than being obstructive. I do feel you would be obstructive based on our discussion here.

Over time, I have had parents ask me all kinds of questions - some have been odd, some pointless (in my view) and some sensible - I have tried to answer them all. I have never been asked a question where I knew the answer (even if not written down) but chose not to answer it in some way.

Dont all schools publish SATS results for Yr 2 and 6. From those it is easy for parents to see where their child fitsin the year group - above or below what most people got - how is that different to what you call breaching confidentiality by saying someone is in the top half or in the middle or in the bottom half? I have also known schools report information in the same form about other KS2 year groups.

Obviously you haven't clearly expressed how the information would be useful or I wouldn't be asking

"I think I would probably find a parents evening appointment with you frustrating."

Not half as frustrating as teachers must find you! Do you ever notice the Head Teacher happening to drop in on your appointments?

How would you work out from published SAT results your child's position? 100% of pupils achieved level 4 or above

Our SIP wrote a 10 page letter to the visiting Ofsted team of her dcs' school, citing every detail of the school's shortcomings as she saw them.

Now that's what you call a nightmare parent.

Remember, I am a teacher! I have been to far far more parents evenings as a teacher than as a parent. I have experienced all kinds of questions and I have answered them. I would like to think I don't act like a robot, but am able to express answers in a way that is both appropriate and informative, leaving parents feelings their queries have been dealt with. I do t make judgements about if the things they ask are educationally valid from my viewpoint. And I am able to answer questions about relative place in the class or year without any sense that I have infringed confidentiality. And fortunately, apart from once, I have also found that when I have been sitting on the other side of the desk, teachers have answered my questions, including the one about how they are holding their own. The only information I have ever been refused was the Levels my child was working at - was told I didn't need to know. The Head happily told me and put it in writing too.
As a parent, Amongst other things, I always ask for my children's current levels, target levels for the end of the year and I do ask how they are holding their own in the class. And I have always been given an answer along the lines of 'in the top third' or 'around the middle' which has been enough information for me.

Mrz I refer you to my post of 19.14 tonight when I listed again, why knowing the relative place of a child in the class might be useful for parents.

I think that I am finished for tonight.
I feel that I have repeatedly given reasons why parents might find knowing where their child is roughly in terms of the class (as well as with regards to national expectations) useful, even if teachers don't think it is useful. I have explained ways this can be given without giving away information about any individual pupil. I have explained why I am concerned about teachers making judgements about what can be asked and what can't and refusing to provide information which they certainly know, citing the fact it isn't officially required to be reported, or the school doesn't keep records of that information, as a reason.
I will go forward as a teacher, flexibly and hopefully helpfully for parents. I hope to encounter teachers of my own children who will take my questions as simply those of a parent wanting information to get a better picture of my child as an individual and within the world that they live in, because that information enables me as a parent to do my best for them, in more aspects of their lives.
Goodnight.