No sense of where my child is in the class

[Enjoyingmycoffee1981]

I was very anxious about my August born son starting school this year. As it turns out, it has been fine. I am actually gob smacked at his progress. Before school, he knew how handful of letters, no sounds and blotchy counting.

Now he is reading!!!! Not everything obviously, not even close, but if he doesn't recognise the word by sight, he can sound it out and then gets it.

I would love to know how this compares with other children in his class. I want to know if he is doing well for a summer born, or if he is doing well. Period.

I have asked the teacher and she said, yes he is doing very well, but it is a large busy school and that was the sum total of our conversation.

So I would be keen on your thoughts.

He is 4.5, he recognises all letters of the alphabet, he can sound them all out, he can identify a number of words without needing to sound them out e.g. It, is, the, and, go, on, no etc. He can read most 3/4 letter words by sounding them out.

It is this doing ok, or is this just doing ok for a summer born?

Thanks v much

Caff2, using the old levels would mean in most cases, and in the case of writing in KS2 especially, that your children would actually be two years behind where they used to be, according to national expectations and by the end of KS2.

Experienced teacher or not, the levels just do not correlate any more and you would be stupid to use them.

There are some very odd posts on here since I last looked!

One is talking about being told where the class is against National expectations. Clearly, there would be too many variables for this. Teachers will tell you where your child is against national expectations. Far more useful.

The other-is from someone whose child, I believe, is not yet at school. This post suggests teachers use the old levels that have been abolished and fit an old curriculum which we no longer teach. Just in case they being back levels in 7 years. Ok...

Apologies to the second poster-they do have children already in education. You say you're a teacher, Caff. Do you teach currently?

And if you don't, you are downright 'odd' (but not downright incompetent!)

The idea of 'secretly' keeping levels can only come from someone who believes the curriculum we are assessing against has not changed significantly.

Now that is strange.

For example, my ds is comfortably in the top 3 three in his class. (He is in year 9, and by then they know that sort of thing). However, his school has very few high attainers, so that tells me nothing

I am really struggling on this thread. You have just told me information about your son, that he is in top three in class of low attainers!! Thats information^, I am struggling, really struggling to see how this wouldn't be useful?

I am therefore taking it that you wouldn't be concerned if he was was in the bottom of these low attainers, even thought you knew he could achieve more? Because the fact they are low attainers, apparently means nothing to you?

I know my dd is an excellent reader. If the teacher said she wasnt one of the good readers in class....Its pretty obvious to me, that some thing is therefore out of kilter.

That information would tell me, perhaps she is shy in class? Or maybe the other DC are incredible readers...but it certainly gives me information with which to move forward.

I am staggered that someone thinks this is useless info? This info leads to all sorts of things!

"I am therefore taking it that you wouldn't be concerned if he was was in the bottom of these low attainers, even thought you knew he could achieve more? Because the fact they are low attainers, apparently means nothing to you?"

I don't understand, sorry. Could you ask me that question again?

But if I understand you correctly, the fact that he is in the top 3 is useless information to me. What is useful is to know where he is measured against national criteria for his age. He could be in the top 3 in his class and be achieving well below what he personally could be achieving, even if he was doing well in relation to his peers.

This thread seems typical of far too many where everyone is totally polarised and there is a noticeable lack of flexibility. I'm right and that's that - it makes for depressing reading.

As one example, surely whether or not this information is useful depends on how the school manages the education of their pupils.

If, as in mrz school, there is no ability setting then knowing where a child is, relative to the rest of their class mates is less relevant because all the children are exposed to all of the teaching. As mrz stated just because a child doesn't yet know all of their single letter correspondences doesn't mean they can't start learning some digraphs.

However a proportion of schools set by ability - I've no idea how many, but on MN it seems quite highly reported. In that case it can make a difference because being in the middle rather than bottom set, or the top rather than the middle means you get taught different things at a different pace. In schools that set the longer you are in the bottom or middle set the harder it can be to move up and access a different level of content (I'm generalising here).

If I had just used age related expectations for DD that would have told me that she was doing just fine in maths, she was 1a/2c at the beginning of year 1 last year. She was also in the support group, i.e. the tiny bottom group. Now in year 2 she's in the top group for maths because I had not only the age related info, but where she was placed in her very high achieving class. Practice, little and often was the key to boosting her confidence that led to her moving up the sets and really starting to whizz along, so much so that she was only consolidating in the middle set and now, in the top set, she's learning new concepts at school again.

Therefore, I don't agree that just knowing how your child is doing against age related expectations is always enough - it depends. And schools setting by ability is a factor that I think makes knowing where your child sits in the class potentially useful.

It is also disappointing so see how quickly some posters dismissed the OP's teacher for providing the OP with the information she requested, going so far as to say the teacher had plucked the information out of thin air (which is the same as lying in my book).

Usually teachers that provide information to parents are defended to the hilt by other teachers on MN. But oddly not in this instance. If you can believe anything on MN (and some don't) it seems that a lot of teachers do provide class rank information given the amount of posters saying their DCs are top of the class (or average, or bottom - I've read posts with all these rankings provided).

The value of such information depends. The fact that some teachers provide it certainly doesn't prove its value, however neither is it logical or cogent to argue that it is intrinsically valueless.

Diamondage- you seem to be suggesting that the teacher isn't interested in you child making progress, which is rather depressing. I expect teachers to ensure that my child makes good progress- that is a significant part of their job. I would expect a teacher to tell me if my child could/should be doing better than they are.

Hakluyt - where do I seem to suggest that the teacher isn't interested in my child making progress, I didn't intend to suggest that?

I'm not sure how being a 1a/2c at the beginning of year 1 indicates lack of progress either - but perhaps I've misunderstood your point, in which case, I apologise.

You said, I think, that your child only moved up the sets because of work you did at home- suggesting that without your intervention that wouldn't have happened. If that's not what you meant, I apologize.

One is talking about being told where the class is against National expectations. Clearly, there would be too many variables for this. Teachers will tell you where your child is against national expectations. Far more useful.

Meaning me? I wasn't suggesting they would tell us where the class is, but that where the class is is a driving factor in where an individual child is.

Say for example school A haven't taught times tables yet to a certain year group, and school B had. Say most pupils in school A don't yet meet national standards for times tables, many pupils in school B exceed them. As a parent in school B if my DC don't know tables then that's a worry because they're not keeping up with the work. As a parent in school A I might worry about the school's standards but I wouldn't be worrying about my child's ability to learn times tables.

I guess it depends what it is you want to find out.

Both DS teachers so far have provided class rank information - which group and where they stand in the group - I didn't ask they just told me. Was rather surprised.

Hak, I have explained how its useful above, again, my dd great reader, but bottom in class...I know something is wrong, it matter not one jot what national average is - but that personally - in that class - something is wrong, because I know dd is great reader.

I really cant be bothered to trot out all the far more eloquent reasons above but I will state once more.

It doesn't matter what the teacher thinks of the information - its simply not their place to judge. I find it so odd that because some people do not think its relevant they can purport to be and think for other parents, or even go as far as calling the parent wanting to know as stupid?

We are not in Mao's china, we are in the UK! We have no information police.

If a parent asks roughly where their child is, they should be told, and many techers seem able to to do so, just not the famous three on here!

However, based on my example above one can see why some teachers wouldn't want to share info....much easier to fob parents off and keep them at arms length.

Whether you find it odd or not Caff we have a completely new National Curriculum and the old levels don't match curriculum content. The Government scrapped the levels (as they were no longer compatible) and have left it up to schools how they assess most year groups (exceptions being end of Key Stage tests)

If you know your child is a good reader why does it matter if they are bottom of a particular class? Isn't it possible that the other children are slightly better readers?

just not the famous three on here!

I suggest you count again - several school staff have explained both why they can't and why it wouldn't be useful.

Who are the famous three?

Much easier to tell a parent their struggling child is average or top table ??