No sense of where my child is in the class

[Enjoyingmycoffee1981]

I was very anxious about my August born son starting school this year. As it turns out, it has been fine. I am actually gob smacked at his progress. Before school, he knew how handful of letters, no sounds and blotchy counting.

Now he is reading!!!! Not everything obviously, not even close, but if he doesn't recognise the word by sight, he can sound it out and then gets it.

I would love to know how this compares with other children in his class. I want to know if he is doing well for a summer born, or if he is doing well. Period.

I have asked the teacher and she said, yes he is doing very well, but it is a large busy school and that was the sum total of our conversation.

So I would be keen on your thoughts.

He is 4.5, he recognises all letters of the alphabet, he can sound them all out, he can identify a number of words without needing to sound them out e.g. It, is, the, and, go, on, no etc. He can read most 3/4 letter words by sounding them out.

It is this doing ok, or is this just doing ok for a summer born?

Thanks v much

Thank you chocolate. Your pupils and their parents are lucky to have you

Wombat, that is ranking

It can be a schools approach, not only a teachers not to rank.

It is increasingly About your child moving on the right amount of levels from start to finish. The whole world is moving away from, ranking, even in some sales firms

My ds has been playing football for 3 years the league does not collect results. This is no league table they're is no ranking. Is about individual progress at this age.

His coach, even when I said "you can tell me every possible game stat for Millwall in the last 10 years, boy you can tell me if we won more games than we lost this season?"

"Correct. But look look how much do has improved. t he team is the best is ever been "

Because that is the policy And approach of the club and the league that we signed up for.

If i wanted him and his team ranking? I'd move teams and leagues.

Thank you chocolate. Your pupils and their parents are lucky to have you

Your a teacher chocolate! Thanks for your contribution to this thread. Its been very interesting and all the more so now I know your a teacher.

Your def one of the good ones! The parents and pupils are very lucky to have you!

Hi, just my two pence worth (not getting into the disagreements above - reminds me of an assessment course I was at....disagreement and confusion was rife).

We expect children in year 1 to be at least a 1b, ideally 1a, with a sizeable chunk at 2c. The government is sort of scrapping these but that's what we have atm. So for reception, I'm looking for children, in reading, to be confidently reading (inc blending) simple phonic words by Christmas e.g pig, shed, bat, thin etc and by end of the year to be learning and using sounds such as "ay". That's not to say if they haven't there's a problem, especially for summer born boys. They might need a bit more time or practise.

OP your DS sounds like he's doing fine. It's worth mentioning that sound children come in knowing loads but progress slowly, and other children 'catch up' or 'overtake' them. I couldn't really say hand on heart who was a ' better reader' until Easter time.

^ by end of year 1

Bensfolds, I know it is about individual progress. I am a teacher.

However it is not true to say that where students are relative to each other is irrelevant or ignored.
When students enter secondary school they are usually set for maths. The top group will be the top 25 or whatever number the groups have in them etc etc. So whether you are in the top group is determined by where you sit in terms of others. The top group are not in there because they made the most progress from KS1 to KS2. So a pupil may have made most individual progress of anyone from KS1 to KS2 but still be in a very low group, because their starting and finishing points were still low.
Of course being top of the class in a small primary school may mean you do up end up in the top secondary group, but having information about the place in class, as well as their current level (whichever year they are in) will give an indication of where they might be later. It can also give an indication of likely results at GCSE.
So a school IS interested in rank order in a sense. They often use it when it comes to GCSE options - only the top % or those with particular KS2 SATs might be offered academic GCSE courses, or the chance to take single sciences or more GCSEs for example. If the school have that information, I can see no reason why a parent asks about it can't be given a rough idea.
So parents will ask me about where their DC is in the class. And I will happily say that they are in the top few, the top half, around the middle or in the lower half. I am not more precise than that and don't refer to other children specifically. I think it is a mistake to pretend that people are not compared to each other or that your attainment compared to others doesn't matter. It is a reality. At GCSE certain %s will get the top grades! the same at A Level and at University application stage, the top candidates will get offers and those who RANK lower won't. It is possible for children to have a sense if this and parents too, without being thoroughly demoralised and unable to cope. None of our jobs is to help them cope with the fact that some achieve at a higher level than ourselves. It is a life skill.
I agree that the key thing is that each individual makes the most progress they can for themselves. But I also think it helps to know where your child in within the class and within the national picture. Knowing your child is just below L5 might encourage a parent to give their child some extra help to get them over the border, knowing it will get them into a better maths set in Year 7. Information is power! I think parents should be able to access information about their own child and knowing their relative position in class gives nothing away about any other specific individuals.

If ever I am asked a question which I don't know the answer to, I will say so and perhaps refer the parents to someone who will know. If I am asked something that it is inappropriate for the parent to know (and I never have been) then I would be honest and say this. I would not lie and say the school or myself don't know this information, if in fact we do.

The government isn't "sort of scrapping" levels ...they've scrapped them!

As you are a teacher you will no doubt be aware that setting in primary has been shown to be ineffective at the best and actually detrimental for some.

Teachers all know whether each child is in the upper or lower half of a class in different areas, with or without setting. They can answer the question with this information when parents ask the question, regardless of the type of school they are in or whether children are set or not. They know the answer and can give it whether Levels are used or not, if they are in the UK or working under a totally different education system. They simply know this information once they have taught the children for a while.
If they choose not to give the information when asked, they should not pretend it is because they dont know the information.

And Mrz, I have to say, that if your replies to me on this thread were in an essay answering the question about parents knowing where their child is in the class, I would have to write;
Relevance??
Focus on the question
Connect what you are saying clearly to the question.
I don't know if you make points like your last one about setting being unhelpful to try and deflect the focus of the discussion and avoid giving a direct answer, or if you are absolutely unable to give a straight answer, or don't want to answer the question because you think your answer will look bad in some way. Do you give these 'non-answers' at parents evening when parents ask questions - talking about a very different issue, in the hope they will be fobbed off.
I think parental questions deserve to be treated with respect and given an answer.

I've been waiting for you to explain what relevance knowing where your child is in class to their education but you seem unable to do so chocolate wombat. You seem to believe this is vitally important to you as a parent but haven't said in what way it is useful. Perhaps it is simply being able to say ""my child is on the top table" I'm non the wiser why you insist you need to know.

At the last parents meeting 3% of my class were at age expected and 84% were working towards it and 3% were on P scales so that makes my middle group (average?) 84% of the class ... Useful information for a parent?

The point is, a parent may wish to know and find that information useful. It doesn't matter whether you deem it useful or not. It seems arrogant in the extreme that you think you are the arbiter or what is and isn't relevant to parents and so choose not to tell them things you personally dont consider useful.
And I have stated why it is useful for parents to know, as have others on here. Knowing where a child is in the class or against national expectations could result in numerous impacts for parents;

• they might understand that whilst top/bottom in this class, in national terms they are above/below expectations
• they might decide to provide more support as a result of the information, perhaps because they are disappointed about where they are in the class or relation to national expectations
• it might enable them to think more accurately about the future - ie whether to look into Grammar school education or not
• it might make them decide to hire a tutor/get rid of an existing tutor
• it might help them understand why a child has high or low self esteem and think of ways to deal with low self esteem
• it might help them understand or start to understand some of the child's friendship issues

Whether you approve of these reasons for wanting to know or the possible parental response to the question, should not determine whether you give the information. It is not up to you to control what parents can ask or what they do with information.

Very Importantly, you need to realise that the parent asks the question partly from an educational angle, but mostly from a parental angle - their reasons and interest in their child goes far beyond yours as a teacher, and you cannot know as a teacher exactly why the parent wants to know or how they will use the information you have given them. As a teacher you don't need to know this, nor to make value-judgements about what they should and should not know, based on your own pedagogy. It seems incredible arrogance to me, to have information which you are then unwilling to give when asked for it.

And finally, for the umpteenth time, the teacher always needs to put a position in the class in the context of performance against national expectations too. So you can say to any of the 84% of your class asking where their child is in the class, that they are fairly average for your class which also means in this class that they are working towards national expectations. This answers the question in a useful way. But as I say, who are you to know why the parent asks the question, or the wider, perhaps non-educational things that are going on at home or in friendship groups which prompt the question in the first place, or what they will do with information once given.

And you accuse me of avoiding the question??

I've been waiting for you to explain what relevance knowing where your child is in class to their education but you seem unable to do so chocolate wombat. You seem to believe this is vitally important to you as a parent but haven't said in what way it is useful.

I think wombat has more than explained herself and the relevance of the question!

Perhaps it is simply being able to say ""my child is on the top table" Bitterness?

As a parent I have said I want this information, thats all you as a teacher needs to know.

Its crossing a big line a HUGE line to hold information back that a parent is asking for because you don't think they need to know it.

Thats getting into scary territory, like Stalin or Mao etc.

The parent and child are the focus your the conduit to the education, its not for you to hold information back.

You make think so but I beg to differ

I dont even care what wombat has written or anyone else in defending asking the question......

The whole Knub is that the parent has asked the question, you know the answer, give it, and it needs no more explanation or qualifying than that.

Its not your place to beg to differ because its not your remit - to decide what information a parent should know about their child.

choclate

You couldn't spell things out any more than you have, some one has a very rigid and set mind set here that no amount of reasoning will change.

I just pray this mindset is not one I come up against in future for both our sakes, as I would not accept the above comments as an ansa and I would kick up one almighty stink about it.

You're right - it isn't Mrs's remit to decide, we are told what we should share by the powers that be.

Ranking within a class isn't a statutory reporting requirements. Of course, any parent may get around the statutory reporting issue by quoting the Freedom of Information Act which would require a school to share any data about the child. But if the data doesn't exist, they can't possibly share it, however much posters may stamp their feet.

Very Importantly, you need to realise that the parent asks the question partly from an educational angle, but mostly from a parental angle - their reasons and interest in their child goes far beyond yours as a teacher, and you cannot know as a teacher exactly why the parent wants to know or how they will use the information you have given them. As a teacher you don't need to know this, nor to make value-judgements about what they should and should not know, based on your own pedagogy. It seems incredible arrogance to me, to have information which you are then unwilling to give when asked for it

Yes and yes a million times.

No one will care for my child more than me and her father...

You are entitled to information about your own child, but not about other children in the class, specific or general. I'm sure this has been said already, but you may be told where your child is in line with national expectations, but not specifically about the class, beyond "this is the range of attainment." So, in old money, maybe between 2C and 3A, and your child is a 3c. You are unlikely to be told that your child is 6th out of 30 for maths, primarily because we don't rank children in that way this century these days.

Feenie as chocolate so eloquently pointed out - if a teacher doesn't have a rough idea of where the pupils are - there is a major problem with the teacher.

I didn't say a teacher would not know - I said that the data would not normally be recorded probably because it's completely useless and therefore there would be no statutory or legal requirement whatsoever to share it.

We already freely share data about a child with the child's parents... this is where your child is this is where they should be ...your child is achieving above/at/below age expectations ... This is what we are doing and this us how you can support your best child