No sense of where my child is in the class

[Enjoyingmycoffee1981]

I was very anxious about my August born son starting school this year. As it turns out, it has been fine. I am actually gob smacked at his progress. Before school, he knew how handful of letters, no sounds and blotchy counting.

Now he is reading!!!! Not everything obviously, not even close, but if he doesn't recognise the word by sight, he can sound it out and then gets it.

I would love to know how this compares with other children in his class. I want to know if he is doing well for a summer born, or if he is doing well. Period.

I have asked the teacher and she said, yes he is doing very well, but it is a large busy school and that was the sum total of our conversation.

So I would be keen on your thoughts.

He is 4.5, he recognises all letters of the alphabet, he can sound them all out, he can identify a number of words without needing to sound them out e.g. It, is, the, and, go, on, no etc. He can read most 3/4 letter words by sounding them out.

It is this doing ok, or is this just doing ok for a summer born?

Thanks v much

Willbeatjanuaryblues not all parents have nephews and nieces. I certainly don't. Not all parents have friends with school aged children.

Chocolate wombat I'm not talking about a particular class I'm talking about multiple classes around the country.

I have lots of friends with school age children all over the country (I've moved around a lot). I have absolutely no idea in any sort of meaningful way how their children are doing academically (I mean I might know that Sarah is good at maths or John is struggling with writing) in any sort of way that it would be useful for me to compare my own children with. In fact my brother's DC are a similar age to my own and go to a private school, whereas mine go to a state school. We have tried, and failed to work out whether my DC are doing better academically than his or vice versa (something we are interested in because we are both questioning our choice of sector). And we've been quite explicit and open. It's actually rather hard to get an idea of how your child is doing based on just talking to other random parents.

Willbeatjanuaryblues not all parents have nephews and nieces. I certainly don't. Not all parents have friends with school aged children

Thats the whole point, you dont, I do, someone else wont, someone else will which is why its not a good enough reason for any teacher to use this as an example of why not to give out data when a parent asks, because we simply do not know the background, meaning or whys behind it.
If a teacher is really reluctant and worked up about this - issue as it seems some are....

Simply tell the parents the info they want and say why you don't think it paints the whole picture. perfect, you get your views across ad they get their information.

It's actually rather hard to get an idea of how your child is doing based

I am afraid its simply something you cant quantify.

You want to research between state and private and for your purposes, for your personal yard stick YOU dont find all the above in your post has been helpful.,

However for MY purposes, for MY yard stick, my personal reasons, which no one else on this planet can know or judge or reason with........the information I get, the speaking to friends I do, the knowing about relatives children I know......ALL helps me.

if it doesnt help you, dont ask the question.

You can't really tell till year 3 really. DS2's school class had a mixture of laid back bright second born kids who were encouraged to play and also more average ability first borns with pushier parents. The second group streamed ahead initially but were then over taken by the first group

this has also been debated lots and no conclusions ever.

However I read at reception you get the children who can write or read then being over taken by year 1 and 2. which would make far more sense as easier to prepare child for reception age.

mrz

I did ask earlier how it was possible with levels which go at national level....to say a child is top group but in fact to be so struggling that they need intervention at new school?

a teacher saying one thing - child is top - would also be backed up by grades so wondering how such discrepancy is possible.

Would seem to suggest something badly out of kilter with grades or teacher

Simply tell the parents the info they want and say why you don't think it paints the whole picture. perfect, you get your views across ad they get their information.

The teacher cannot say your DC is in the top quartile of the class, but that this class has 20% EAL, 5% traveller, 10% SEN and 30% on EHC or intervention programmes, because that is information that you are not entitled to know, particularly if it could identify individual students.

Even in DFE publications data that could identify individual students/staff is suppressed!

However, these factors, and many others, all contribute to the range, average and quartile information of the cohort. Simply knowing where your DC is in the class, without the additional information surrounding it, is meaningless and useless.

I would much rather be told my DC is exceeding/at/below national expectations, where their strengths and weaknesses lie and what they need to focus on and consolidate to progress further. I do not need to know any information about the rest of the class for this!

The teacher cannot say your DC is in the top quartile of the class, but that this class has 20% EAL, 5% traveller, 10% SEN and 30% on EHC or intervention programmes, because that is information that you are not entitled to know,

I think any parent would have a reasonable gage of such matters from being in the play ground actually, talking to other parents, childrens parties.

I would much rather be told my DC is exceeding/at/below national expectations

well according to a teacher up thread these are totally meaningless too, a child was told above average and had to have intervention at the school she teaches at they were that concerned about the child.

Again must point out word I.

Some people dont want to know, some do which once again I say its not teachers business to decide what info is to be given out. not their place.

At the end of the year you will get a report which will tell you whether your child is working towards expectations, has achieved them or exceeded them in 17 key areas. i would ask the teacher at parents night about whether she thinks he will be achieving all expectations by end of year, then you will know which elements need extra focus,

well according to a teacher up thread these are totally meaningless too, a child was told above average and had to have intervention at the school she teaches at they were that concerned about the child.

You need to reread what mrz wrote, as she said the following:

and I've comforted many parents who were told by teachers that their child was in the top group / average in the class only to discover that meant they were TWO YEARS behind national expectations!

The parents mrz was referring to were told how well their DC were performing with regard to the class, NOT national expectations. Which is my case in point! Had those parents been told how well their DC were performing against national expectations, they would have realised they were achieving well below what is expected.

I think any parent would have a reasonable gage of such matters from being in the play ground actually, talking to other parents, childrens parties.

Really?! I very much doubt you would have a reasonable gauge of such matters from the playground gossips. You may know children who are EAL, as that is often fairly obvious. How would you know which child(ren) were on intervention programmes? Not all parents offer this information freely.

Some people dont want to know, some do which once again I say its not teachers business to decide what info is to be given out. not their place.

You can request any information you want but, when it comes to information relating to the class/other children, it is most definitely the teacher's decision whether he/she gives you that information. Not yours!

As I said before, asking only where a child is performing in relation to the class is too narrow/the wrong question to ask. However many parents do ask just that because they don't realise that the child against national expectations is the more relevant question.

Teachers however know that question alone is too narrow and can choose to answer in a way to show that. So they can CHOOSE not to just say the child is in the top group (reassuring) but fail to mention that all of that group are below national expectations. I can only assume any teacher not stating BOTH things doesn't want to face the parents reaction to this information.

So teachers should use their professional judgement here - they can answer the question about the child in relation to the class without referring to any specific groups of children (certainly can be answered without saying X number are SEN and X no are travellers and X no are on FSM or whatever was suggested as unacceptable upthread). All they need to say, is the child is performing well in an able class or is broadly average, or in the upper half or in the lower half. They might add they are in the lower half of a particularly able class, or one of a few working at this level in the class. It does not need to be more specific, but provides enough to answer the question. THEN they should add something about the child in relation to national expectations - they could say that this is a more relevant measure.

I don't actually see the problem being the Q being asked by parents, but potentially the way it is answered by teachers. Refusing to answer doesn't help, but leads to the sense there is something to to be hidden. Answering just about the position in class and failing to mention national expectations can lead to unnecessary disappointment either now or later.

I remain amazed at how many schools say so little about levels until they are reported. I know parents who had never heard of levels until their child came home at the end of KS1 with a letter saying what their KS1 SATs results were. They had never been told previously what national expectations were, if their child was on track for them or above or below. Even when receiving them, all they had as a way of explanation was 1 sentence saying L2 was the expected level - they didn't know if this meant the average level (which of course it doesn't,but is a common misconception) and if that level was good or bad for their individual child.

Whenever I asked about Levels, the answer always began with the comment that 'this school isn't interested in Levels, just the progress of individual children' I found it infuriating. My child does live in to comparative world. The Levels they achieve in KS1 will have an impact on the sets they are put in for maths when they enter Junior school and what they are exposed to, and the expectations teachers have of them as they move up through the school. Those levels might mean they receive intervention because their progress is not seen to be enough, or don't get any help, because what they have achieved is seen as in line with natural progress for someone of that starting point. And GCSE expectations will partly be based on KS2 SATS in the same way, as will which subjects are even offered to them as options at GCSE. So to say that comparing a child to others nationally and only individual progress is relevant is tosh. They are judged against each other from the word go and there is no reason for parents not to know where their children stand and the impact of this into the future.
I know parents who have said that if they had known what not getting the L5 in KS2 SATS would have meant for setting in maths at secondary and GCSE options, they would have shown a greater interest, pushed a bit harder and not simply accepted 'X is moving forward steadily and on track for national expectations' as if achieving L4 was some kind of fantastic achievement.

Not all children can be top. Of course not. But too many parents are left feeling they didn't have enough information about where their children were at a given point, or the implications for the future. Telling parents in a reassuring way that their child is on track for L4, which is what 80% of children achieve! should not be reassuring but unsettling for at least 30% of that group - is that made clear?

Sorry, too many points in this post. I return to the point that teachers have the responsibility not to JUST tell a pupils place within the class, but to ALWAYS place that in the broader national context - they know this is the key issue, not class place, but parents don't always know this.

IMHE parents usually ask how their child is achieving against national expectations because they realise that is a "standard measure"

Most teachers response is governed by school policy and professional regulations.

In my experience, older more experienced teachers happily answer any questions, in a useful way, adding extra information, if the parent has asked the 'wrong' question. They are unafraid of giving the wrong answer, as they know it is just information and that they trust their own judgements about the child and where they stand in relation to there, because they have seen lots of others over the years. Their willingness to answer in a straight forward way is appreciated by parents.
It is often the young or new teachers or perhaps the weaker ones who won't give a straight answer or give an answer which is misleading. Simple refusal to answer, without then giving useful information which will allay the concerns of parents (and good teachers often know what the underlying concern of the parents is, behind the question.....because again they have seen many parents over the years) just leads to a sense of frustration and lack of confidence in the teacher. If the whole school take the same approach, a lack of confidence in the school itself can be the result. All that is required is openess.

Just because a teacher doesn't supply the information about position in class doesn't mean they aren't being open and honest.

I'm really not interested so much in position in class.
As I have said, information is isn't always freely available about where pupils stand in relation to national expectations (until the official Year 2 and Year 6 reporting of SATs points) or if their current level or trajectory they are on would be good for their starting point, rather than resulting in national expectations being achieved.
It's not just about answers to that one question but about openess with parents in relation to the things they want to know, and also about things the SCHOOL knows but often isn't so keen to share.
I'm sure you'd see me as a pushy parent - I just want to know about my child individually, in this competitive world in which we all exist and in the smaller place where they spend their school days. I can't control the outcomes, but the more information I have, the more I can be useful and the less likely unexpected unpleasant surprises are.
Over and out.

Good grief, this focus on the importance of asking how my child is doing against national measure, rather than how he is doing in his class!

I could very easily identify how my son is doing against national measures. Fine.

However I want to know how he doing against his peers. It's a class of thirty in a very affluent area at an outstanding school that families almost literally have to live on the for step to get in, it gets outstanding results and is highly competitive. If I am told that my boy is in the bottom quarter of his class in reception and year 1, my DH and I would seriously think about move him to the local private school, which is much less academically successful but has other strengths. I don't want my son to experience being near the bottom of the class simply by virtue of the fact that his class is very high achieving. I know he is smart and at this age I believe very strongly that even more important that phonics etc is confidence building.

So damn it, if I want to know where my son is no the class, I should be bloody privy to that information!

Perhaps that's because there were no national expectations for Y1,3,4 or 5

Add message | Report | Message poster mrz Mon 19-Jan-15 19:23:56
Just because a teacher doesn't supply the information about position in class doesn't mean they aren't being open and honest.

It most certainly does mean they are not being open. They are not being open with the information they are aware of to a child's parents. What spin would you put on it mrs?

Being in an outstanding school in an affluent area doesn't mean that the children will be any more able than children from a less affluent area in a good school ... Fortunately

Perhaps if you ask in that way you might get the answer you're looking for.

Now you are assuming that schools have that information??

Mars, nice to think that is the case, but do the most rudimentary of research and you will see that affluent area generally tends to go hand and in hands with the best results. Whilst results are not a definite measure of ability, they are certainly a profoundly important consideration.

And as for assuming the teacher has the information available as to where my child roughly is in his class., yes, I am guilty of that assumption. Could you not answer that question about your pupils mrs?