No sense of where my child is in the class

[Enjoyingmycoffee1981]

I was very anxious about my August born son starting school this year. As it turns out, it has been fine. I am actually gob smacked at his progress. Before school, he knew how handful of letters, no sounds and blotchy counting.

Now he is reading!!!! Not everything obviously, not even close, but if he doesn't recognise the word by sight, he can sound it out and then gets it.

I would love to know how this compares with other children in his class. I want to know if he is doing well for a summer born, or if he is doing well. Period.

I have asked the teacher and she said, yes he is doing very well, but it is a large busy school and that was the sum total of our conversation.

So I would be keen on your thoughts.

He is 4.5, he recognises all letters of the alphabet, he can sound them all out, he can identify a number of words without needing to sound them out e.g. It, is, the, and, go, on, no etc. He can read most 3/4 letter words by sounding them out.

It is this doing ok, or is this just doing ok for a summer born?

Thanks v much

WillBeatJanuaryBlues as far as I know no teacher is deciding this but as a parent I'm interested to know why some feel so strongly about it.

OP by the by. I have read a number of threads where the teacher has fobbed worried parent off - saying they are fine performing as expected and the parent has realised quite late, the child is woefully un educated and doing really badly.

Cue - panic, tutors and so on to try and fill in the gaps.

Also on slightly different topic a poster says she wanted to enter child for 11+ and was told by school, was strong on tables, so didnt think she had to be concerned with those only to find out the school expectation of strong on tables was totally in adequate for a child about to try for 11+.

So I am a firm believer in receiving as much info as I can from all sides, perspectives and so on and its my business what I do with it.

as far as I know no teacher is deciding this I hope not it would be a staggeringly arrogant thing for a teacher to do!

and I've comforted many parents who were told by teachers that their child was in the top group / average in the class only to discover that meant they were TWO YEARS behind national expectations!

mrz - do you tend to have classes with very similar starting points/abilities or low levels of SEN/EAL?

and I've comforted many parents who were told by teachers that their child was in the top group / average in the class only to discover that meant they were TWO YEARS behind national expectations!

Yes-me too. We have a lot of children join/leave our school and if they've been told they're top of the class or bang in the middle-it can be very damaging as obviously when they change school, the 'average' of that class is different.

No BMO high levels of SEN and a huge range of starting points
but it's not difficult to include cvc and polysyllabic words in the same lesson

That worries me a little sometimes. My daughter is very able for her class it appears... But we are a v low achieving area so who knows in a more mc school if she'd achieve more! X

Do you find it is confusing for children who are just getting to grips with satpin to be introduced to digraphs?

Not at all. I find it a mistake to assume that because a child doesn't know every early sound they won't remember those that come later. The Letters and Sounds phases were never intended as a barrier for moving forward.

I also find there is a tendency to blame the messenger telling you your average/top table child is behind rather than the fool who provided the useless information.

I understand the phases not being a barrier to moving forward, but am not sure how helpful it would be for some of our children who still struggle to recognise their names or more than a handful of letter sounds, or to segment or blend at all, to be introduced to more and more sounds every day. Interesting to hear you take a different approach though.

As I said before, knowing where a child is in the class and where against national expectations are both useful, for different purposes.

It is disappointing to hear that parents can be told their children are doing fine or can infer that and later discover they are below average expectations, or that they are not up to taking the 11+ or whatever the parents hope for them. It is because of this that I ask questions and pretty explicit questions to ensure no confusion.

In my experience, teachers want to be reassuring. It isn't easy to tell someone that their child is either achieving below what they are personally capable of or below national expectations......so unless directly asked they don't say. When parents later find out at the end of a Key Stage they are disgruntled and there are loads of threads on MN of people with that experience. So to answer Mrz about why people want to know this stuff - it is partly so that this kind of nasty surprise doesn't occur. Parents need to learn to ask precise questions about parents evenings....I think a key reason these differences between the school understanding and parental understanding of what progress is being made against national expectations is because parents don't ask the precise questions and without the precise questions, schools don't volunteer the answers.

If I were told my child was below expectations I would want to know exactly what was being done about it and how I could support them at home. The end result might be that they remained in that position, but I would feel that as a parent I had done all I could myself and made sure the school were doing all they could to address it. Without this knowledge, how could I possibly actively intervene on their behalf?

So Mrz, perhaps you work in a school where parents are not interested I this stuff and so they never ask. However there are many parents who are interested....partly for information for its own sake, never mind if it has a practical purpose (perfectly valid) but also perhaps because they don't quite trust the school to give the information or to do enough with the information unless pushed a little by the parent. We all know that people who shout loudest often get somewhere and are heard and responded to. I hope not to need to shout, but if I feel my child is underperfoming or the school not meeting their needs, then I will speak out - clearly not shouting, in reality! I need the information in order to know if that is necessary.

The idea that parents hand their children over to the school and then totally back off and leave it to the school without ever asking a question or wanting to know anything' might be the reality in some places, but in many it isn't and I absolutely believe that is not desirable or most beneficial for the education of our children.

I'm not sure how much more explicit the answer can be than "your child is in the top group" only to discover on moving schools you child is actually two years behind!

MRZ AND ROLL ON....

Obv lots of teachers are telling parents where the child is in the class.

You have comforted many of these parents when child is in odd class.

It still doesn't matter or mean when a parent asks, you shouldn't say...roughly where are.

We cant all be damned because of the way some parents are receiving or understanding information.

No chocolate wombat I work in a school where staff are honest and don't wait until a child is struggling to invite parents in or tell parents what they think parents want to hear simply to be popular. One where helpful information that will benefit the child is freely shared.

I'm not sure how much more explicit the answer can be than "your child is in the top group" only to discover on moving schools you child is actually two years behind!

But how would this be possible with Levels?

I mean a parent told child is in top would also expect good levels so how can it be the child was then two years behind?

One where helpful information that will benefit the child is freely shared

Any information a parent asks for should without quibble be given to the parent.

If as an experienced teacher I felt a year group was lower in performance than usual, I would say this to the parent asking!

How else can you interpret "your child working is in the top group"

ChocolateWombat Sun 18-Jan-15 19:33:48

I totally agree with every word you say! You can speak for me .

I am learning to trust my daughters school as I was so badly let down by my own as were my siblings, in different ones all over country.

Thankfully, my school so far is open I have not sensed from any teacher withholding information from me. They seem to volunteer it..which is brilliant and how it should be. I feel very much in partnership with them, and with our daughter to get her the best education we can.

I have a great sense of where my child is - roughly in her class, nationally through the levels, and compared to her friends who are at a variety of different schools including some much faster paced private ones in London.
Its important to me she is in a class with peers who are roughly in line with her.
Its a great school, lovely pupils and parents. We are very very lucky.

OP your ds sounds like he is doing great, very much as expected for this stage in Reception. It really is a joy to see their thirst for learning, and how quickly they go from 0 to amazing in the first few months of school, isn't it! I hope he is enjoying everything, and that it continues that way throughout his school life

I have an August ds, a February ds, and a September dd (but that tidy spread of birthdays wasn't a deliberate plan! TTC is never that straightforward!). Each has their own strengths, unrelated to their month of birth. My August ds was in good or top sets in his old school...then we moved and he went to a different school and he was no longer at that level, and ended up in lower to medium sets. So you see, knowing where your ds is 'at' in his class is only relative to that particular group of peers. It's how he is doing in the 'age related expectations' that you need to ask the teacher about, if it is so important to you.

Actually IME lots of people don't have friends with DC in different schools (in areas where everyone goes to the local school)

There you go - you cant possibly withhold info because of your experience and how you know all the children in a parents life is beyond me!

Parents have nieces, nephews, in my case twenty plus second cousins! HOw can you say you know only parents who know only children in the same school is a staggering statement and to then try and diminish any parent wanting to know where their child is - roughly in their class peer group on that basis, sounds like its all built on sand.

Your personal opinion and any parents personal opinion is not relevant here - except - perhaps, along side giving info out.... stated clearly this is just your - personal point of view...

enjoy I would simply push a little further....

You can't really tell till year 3 really. DS2's school class had a mixture of laid back bright second born kids who were encouraged to play and also more average ability first borns with pushier parents. The second group streamed ahead initially but were then over taken by the first group.

And Mrz, if a particular class did not reflect the national spread of ability. For a teacher to respond to the question of 'where does my child sit in terms of ability in this class' with ONLY ' they are in the top group' would be staggering. If that class meant the top group was actually of a low/average standard, surely the teacher would say that too.
Again, it is why Qs about Where they sit in relation to national expectations are better....but parents don't always know that is a better question. So surely a teacher could answer the Q about the class and add in the info about where they are in terms of national expectations too. This would help avoid some of the shock people get when they move school. Doesn't seem that difficult to me.