Taking children out of school during term time. Is the policy of schools endangering lives?

[Toesnsea]

Going too far you think? No. I'm deadly serious. If you are unlucky enough to visit your local hospital in the school hols as I was you'll probably find it a very different place from what you might have expected. Few patients. Few staff. Nice and quiet. You might think this is good. Except cancer, accidents and other life threatening conditions don't recognise the holidays.
Are the missing medical staff forced on expensive out of school time holidays? Are the vital, but impoverished cleaning staff forced on staycations?
If I had my way all Health Workers would be exempted for 5 days a year, but not in public exam time. A benefit in increasing the August footfall in hospitals would be to reduce the footfall in the flu/norovirus season making throughput of patients and life more manageable for hospitals.
Yes, I also think the Workers in the Police, Fire, Social Services (particulary Child Protection Officers) and strangely Dental Workers (try living with a tooth that needs root canal treatment because a dental nurse isn't available) should have the 5 days too.
Hoping you are interested in this view, whether you agree with it or not. Please note I won't be on the site much as I have cancer fatigue and bleary watery eyes on bright days. Please talk across me, the operating parent.

I am an Assistant Head of a primary school and I know I shouldn't say this but... I think you've got a point.

It would be almost impossible to make blanket exceptions for a wide range of key workers. But the new system re term time leave is simply unworkable.

Head teachers can still give permission in theory. But the exceptional circumstances criteria have become so narrow that it puts everybody in an awkward position. Parents now feel that they have to lie, Heads get criticised for fining parents etc etc. And where is this penalty fine m

Oops, posted to soon?

Where is the penalty fines money going? Certainly not to schools.

Of course we must reduce the level of persistent absence in our schools. But fining parents who are key workers is not the answer.

I would suggest re looking at Heads being able to give 5 days leave without it having to be under exceptional circumstances. I know that there are many people who will argue that there are 13 weeks per year of school holidays so no leave should be given. But many families are stuck in a situation where both parents are unable to get time off during the summer holiday at exactly the same time to enable a holiday. Spreading out the holidays a bit will certainly help.

And missing a week from school to spend time as a family is not a huge deal

Any company or workplace will only let enough people off to ensure Rita's are covered. Do you really think that just because every nurse on a cancer ward has children that they are all allowed holidays simultaneously?

Rotas, not Rita's.

Even before the removal of the words "for a family holiday" and the change from "special" to "exceptional", there were schools which simply did not authorise holidays. It has not yet led to any other services failings, and there is no reason to think it will.

Not all hospital staff have school aged children. Agency staff will continue to be available. Even if numbers permitted leave are limited in peak weeks, it is manageable - in essence it is no different to the Christmas and Easter leave dances. And probably not really any different all round, as most parents do not take their children out during term time (despite all the internet noise about it) and for them there really is no change.

Hopsitals only let enough people be off to ensure rotas are covered so your argument in that sense is invalid. All that will happen is people will need to book time off early and may not get the dates they need.

My dad was a nurse and never took us out of school for holidays. He booked his holidays off work well in advance. Non of his other colleagues were unable to have time off either - unless they waited until the last minute.

There was something in the paper about the police wanting exceptions to the holiday fines. They were sighting the Commonwealth Games, but lots of other events and festivals happen in the summer holidays.

There are going to be areas that hit problems with leave for all sorts of reasons.

I'm sure the NHS and the fire service (etc) know how to arrange shift patterns so that we don't all die due to doctors and fire fighters drinking sangria in the sun.

I think you need to step away from the daily mail/sun, OP. You seem to have caught dreadful hyperbole.

It is already done for the police. When they have a big event they have restrictions meaning nobody can take leave so they are allowed to take their children away (within reason) in term time because there is no alternative.

I don't know what a&e you visited but our local one is as busy as ever at the mo. My DP is an a&e nurse and the only effect of school holidays is he is less likely to be allowed that week off as there is likely to be more people requesting the same week as annual leave and they only allow so any staff off at any one time. I can't work out how that is endangering lives, there's still the same number of medical staff working whether it's term time or not.

I think there needs to be more flexibility and more clarity. It seems the head of each school is left to interpret the guidelines.

We're in the US and can have 10 part/full days unexcused per 6mths. There is discretion on the part of the parent and the head teacher of what will be put as unexcused. If a student doesn't meet the minimum attendance required for the grade, they don't pass the grade, and I guess either have to do summer school and/or resit the whole grade.

US regulations It's all very clearly setout here. If the UK schools had a similar, maybe the do, regulation that was set in stone and all schools followed, there would be less arguing and angst and all would know exactly what is going on and where they stand.

Interesting to note in the US one, death of GP is granted an excused absence whereas we see on MN often, it is not in the UK.

The UK seems determined to take away all personal responsbility for families and insist on a big brother approach which doesn't work.

As an aside, I have heard here also, that if you're for eg an expat and want to travel home for a month to Oz to see family, you can withdraw your child from school, then re-register when you return, (the school has to take you if you live in the catchment), thus avoiding any fines or prosecution. I'm not sure I can be bothered with that. They get 11 weeks summer vacation here! So what if it's winter down under, if the point is to visit family.

One of the parents in my son's class is a fireman who gets his annual leave allocated. This year he got given two weeks just after the May half term. How does that work with this wonderful system?

I work in healthcare, and don't believe at all that your point is reactionary DM (let's face it, they'd be more likely to be complaining about public sector workers having holidays). Whilst there may be sufficient staff, add a few emergencies, unexpected sick leave etc and there is no slack left in the system (particularly as services are running on bare minimum in normal circumstances). Yes, there will be officially enough cover to be "safe" but as for weekend cover, it isn't as good. Some will just not be allowed to take leave, or service may be more thinly spread than desirable but neither is acceptable tbh. Not just talking about health, but police, social work etc.
I struggle to get to see elderly dps with health probs as can't go in term time and struggle to take leave in holidays.
Rant over....

It's not just the key workers who have this problem. Train drivers and conductors are also allocated most of their annual leave.

The law changed in September 2013 so this is our first summer holidays under the new policy. No-one is able to say yet what the full impact will be. I hope I am wrong. No one wants tragedies.
I can only say what I saw at the Hospital and the Dentist. It was a surprise. I read that the Government is giving more money to help clear the backlog of those waiting for operation. This is good, but underutilised hospitals in August will make this a difficult task for any Government.
Asking for 5 days for certain workers seemed a modest request to me.
My preferred newspaper is the Sunday Times and I certainly don't agree with all its views and am a bit out of step with it in places as most of its readers have a far greater income than we do, but it lasts me the week. If I had the time and energy (and at times the eyes) I'd read a whole load of newspapers just to know where people are coming from, but like most of you there's a whole lot of cooking going on here.
Thank you for your views even (especially) if you disagree. It needs talking about.

Hi,

I am an NHS worker (18 years service so far) and my husband works in the rail industry. My husband has always had allocated holidays since he started his job many years ago. He gets 3 weeks 'summer' that can fall between March and October, and 1 week 'winter' between November and February. They are fixed.

My department decided to introduce a 'school holiday rota' 5 years ago and, since the introduction of no term time holidays by schools, we have been unable to get ANY time off together as a complete family. We are told when to be off in the school hols now (my job). As my husband hardly gets any time off in school hols it is annoying that when he does get a week of school hols (like October half term this year) I do not (I am off now and had a week in May). I am off at the moment (my allocated time off) but my husband is at work (he doesn't even get the weekends off). I am left to entertain the children alone and, with no family around, I am by myself.

We both work HARD and often work anti-social hours (I do on-call on top of working all day, and travel 50 miles numerous trips a day sometimes). I have been forced to work Xmas the last 3 years (including Xmas Day). So, we are both starting to suffer with stress. Working all hours and no chance of a holiday together.

Why, why, why does the Government not realise that not everyone has term time holidays to save money? We have no choice. We have not had a holiday this year. We will not have one next year, or the year after unless things change...

I think that allowing a certain number of people off is a good idea but they must take into consideration when BOTH parents have allocated holidays .

All hospital wards and departments will have a minimum staffing level, that will be the same, no matter the season. Some staff will get holidays during the school holidays, but they won't go beneath their minimum staffing level. I am willing to bet that the other emergency services are the same.

Dentists may be different, because they will have the option to cut back on their appointments so they need fewer staff - but there will still have to be cover for emergencies (and it is far less likely that a reduction in the available dental service would cause major increases in mortality).

I don't think school holidays make a difference to hospitals. They carry on as normal.

IME staff are usually pretty accommodating. Those without children take leave in term time, and cover school holidays, christmas etc. Those with children offer to do new year, and cover term time holidays.

tbh the going away issue isn't an issue. Lots of staff take holiday in school holidays for childcare purposes, not so they can go to the costa del sol for a week. If health workers were given the 5 days in term time, most wouldn't take it as they save their leave so they don't have to pay for childcare in the holidays….

I think this whole policy has been utterly wrong-headed. Heads should have discretion - end of. Because heads know which families are taking the piss in terms of taking times off and which families aren't. If as a family you ensure your child has good attendance as a rule, there should be flexibility. If as a family you have a track record of taking the mick, you should get fined. The same should apply for children with chronic health conditions, children with ASD and related disorders which mean they cannot handle crowds - essentially we need the restoration of common sense.

"Heads should have discretion - end of."

They do, so you agree with the law - both old and new version. It is explicitly at head's discretion in both old and new form of words.

If heads are weak and hide behind a "bogeyman" of nasty LEA/Govt/other scapegoat that is a totally different issue concerning the calibre and moral fibre of the individual.

Oh, yes, of course. When our legislators are too stupid to understand human psychology, we should place all the blame on head teachers. Let's all pretend that when the word of the law was changed, this wasn't actually supposed to change anything, because of the word "discretion." It was just the government's little joke.

scaevola so why on earth did the government bother to change the law if everything was fine before and nothing has really changed?

And just to add - we received a letter home from Suffolk County Council announcing that they were going to start fining people. Not a word about discretion in that letter. We have never taken a term time holiday because we are lucky enough to be able to afford to go in the school holidays, but I see hard-pressed families whose children have excellent attendance and achievement missing out. Where is the sense in that? And let's not pretend the government don't beat schools over the head with attendance stats, because we all know they do.