Taking children out of school during term time. Is the policy of schools endangering lives?

[Toesnsea]

Going too far you think? No. I'm deadly serious. If you are unlucky enough to visit your local hospital in the school hols as I was you'll probably find it a very different place from what you might have expected. Few patients. Few staff. Nice and quiet. You might think this is good. Except cancer, accidents and other life threatening conditions don't recognise the holidays.
Are the missing medical staff forced on expensive out of school time holidays? Are the vital, but impoverished cleaning staff forced on staycations?
If I had my way all Health Workers would be exempted for 5 days a year, but not in public exam time. A benefit in increasing the August footfall in hospitals would be to reduce the footfall in the flu/norovirus season making throughput of patients and life more manageable for hospitals.
Yes, I also think the Workers in the Police, Fire, Social Services (particulary Child Protection Officers) and strangely Dental Workers (try living with a tooth that needs root canal treatment because a dental nurse isn't available) should have the 5 days too.
Hoping you are interested in this view, whether you agree with it or not. Please note I won't be on the site much as I have cancer fatigue and bleary watery eyes on bright days. Please talk across me, the operating parent.

I think it was because it wasn't "fine" before. (Some) people had got into the mindset that they were entitled to 10 days, irrespective of special/exceptional circumstances and this was disruptive if you see schools as a community rather than a group of individuals. This change was welcomed by NAHT, and had been on the cards for years.

Discretion rests, as I think it should, with heads (many of whom were turning down holiday requests anyhow). It's simply a clarification that a holiday is not special/exceptional in itself and that competent heads can make sound decisions based on the actual circumstances. If your head is incompetent, then there may be bigger problems in the school than exceptional leave requests.

No need to change the word "special" to "exceptional" then, was there? Why not just remove the reference to 10 days? Also - if it wasn't fine before, when HTs could use their discretion, that doesn't mean it's fine, now, does it? After all, if HTs couldn't use their discretion appropriately before, they were hardly going to be cured of the problem overnight.

Ermmmm as an NHS worker - scientist (no direct patient contact) - leave is regularly refused. They don't just let us all go off. We have a maximum 50% staff off for the week between Xmas and New Year but all other times of the year it is much stricter. I requested October half term almost 6 months ago and they'll only let me have 3 days of it!

Trust me school holidays isn't skeleton crew... It's almost full crew because we can't get the leave.

Purely selfishly though I'd love a NHS worker 5 days off in term time rule! ;)

I work in mental health research and I can pretty much get the leave I want as I am in IT support only - but I do have to plan every holiday at least 6 months ahead and more for longer breaks. It is much, much worse in clinical teams - cuts have meant that the teams are so thinly stretched it's madness. I know people who haven't had Christmas with their families for three years. I'm sorry, but people like that should get dispensation for term time holidays.

I don't think it's 'entitled' at all to want a holiday with your family. We live in a world where this is realistically not affordable for far too many people and that's wrong. Perhaps 10 days is too much, but 5 days for a child with usually good attendance should not be too much of a stretch to cope with. I stand by the feeling that common sense has gone out of the window, and the blame lies in large part with the government for using OFSTED to beat schools over the head.

But these cases where people's jobs do not let them take holiday in term time are exactly the exceptional cases that are allowed! You just have to provide the proof to the school e.g letter from employer. At our school I know a few families who have been authorised for exactly this reason. Police, armed forces and a family where the dad has a specific job which means he can't take any time off in school hols. All were exceptional and authorised. If HT aren't authorising these that is an issue with the HT application of the rules rather than the rules themselves. I say this as a parent who chooses to take time off in term time, this year 4 days, didn't get fined as less than 5 days but next year taking 5 days so may be fined. I have no exceptional reasons. But those who do are being authorised.

Has anyone on this thread who has a legitimate reason for having to take time off outside school hols been turned down after providing evidence or is this all hearsay?

I would like to see 4 shorter terms and an equal spread of holiday time with schools open for holiday camps and after school clubs. Sites could be alternated for maintenance purposes.

We aren't having a holiday this year. We have had a few weekends away in the UK and have found it really relaxing and enjoyable.

When the DC were younger we used to send them on PGL for one week (we always did the 2 for one offer), then just have family days off together. Lots of people can't afford family holidays - it has only become an expectation in recent years.

The rules are fine, the issue is head teachers. In our county they have been told by local authority not to authorise any at all as our county had poor attendance and academies of course have their own rules.

We fell foul of the academy, my dp works in children's services and it is impossible some years to get time off in school holidays. Infact he is away over summer for two weeks with the kids he looks after and then when back He is often working stretches of 9 days without a day off so our children barely see him.

We had a holiday in term time and his employer wrote a letter for the madthings schools saying this was the only time he could gave the time off etc. The primary school were fine about it. The high school refused and said it was not exceptional circumstances! I pointed out guidelines which showed this was exceptional circumstances. In the end we went anyway and it went down as unauthorized but we weren't fined.

I'll second what 3littlefrogs had said. We'd be lucky to afford a 'family holiday' anyway, regardless of when in the year it is. We make do with overnighters with friends and family, weekends camping whether in or out of term time and the odd day trip. Summer hols, dd1 is going abroad to visit her biological father for a week and then to see my parents for a week - she's the only one getting a proper 'holiday'. DH is lucky enough to get a bit of time off, which he's using to fix the shed, assemble furniture, muck out the garage and lovingly polish the motorbike! and any other jobs I deem need doing in tree full throes of 3rd trimester nesting.

Where did this expectation come from that every family needs a fortnight away (preferably the med) all together or they will explode or something?!

Weekends away are fab if you get weekends off. And if you have places close enough to visit.

For us a week away is important because dps job means he just doesn't see the kids much, evenings, weekends, night shifts and 36hr sgifts are just a normal part of his job and he is often on Rota support and can be called in at any time. With the kids at school and their activities etc actual family time can be short and not often. So once a year to actually spend some time as a family is not much to ask.

Also re going away for weekends/days out, if it's not a 'leave' day then dp can't go far from home as he may be called to work, on a day fir example when he is on a pm shift, lunchtime till 11pm in the morning he will be on Rota support so needs to stay local, ditto when shifts are the other way round.

As it is this year he has been away/working much of the summer so I have taken the madthings on a weekend to the coast with friends and also for four days to visit my sister. The elder three gave had days away with grandparents (one child at a time). So the kids have and are doing stuff but they would like to see their dad! And actually I need a break as well, I love the school holidays and spending time with the kids but it is full on and I appreciate the lightened load when dp is actually at home.

As has already been said, Headteachers can and do authorise exceptional circumstances. At our school, parents complete a request and are asked what the exceptional circumstances are.

By and large, we would authorise 5 days if the request included a letter from the employer stating that those were the only 5 days available. Of course, the child must already have good attendance. The local authority will only fine the parents that the school have referred.

Our local, large hospital, is on red alert at the moment and has got no capacity at all.

The problem is not all head teachers are authorising it, my boys have good attendance but even with a letter from Dps employer the academy did not authorise it. They didn't respond when I sent them the relevant guidelines from local authority and gov guidelines re exceptional circumstances. We weren't fined though.

In my local authority the fines are given by the local authority not the School.

I work in one of the jobs the OP listed. We are working at minimum staffing levels all through the summer holiday, which is also our busiest time. Everyone wants leave, some got it, some didn't I didn't but I'm not bitter, oh no! We have also been told now that if we take our children out of school in term time we can potentially be disciplined. I don't see us having a lot of holidays over the next few years. As a result stress levels rise, and yes, I can see things going horribly wrong at some point.

Oh yes, so very easy to have weekends away, instead - if you don't work at weekends.

For ten years we did both work weekends and nights.DH still works weekends and nights, but we did try to get the odd 2 or 3 days of annual leave together and spend that time as a short break.

Sorry - weekends was the wrong phrase to use. I do understand about shift work. I did it for over 20 years.

But you got the odd two or three days together, this summer dp hasn't actually had any consecutive days off. He is working nine days straight at the moment, then has one day off, then works a bunch more days and has one day off and then is away with work for a week.

No bank holidays off etc, getting a long weekend off... Not happening. In sept we gave my grandparents golden wedding anniversary to attend, we have to go. Dp has managed with much wrangling to get the Sat and Sun off and will be working doubles to make it up to those who are covering. We were hoping to drive to where we are going on the Fri eve after school but dp is working until 11pm so unless he manages to swoop shifts we won't be able to. So we won't even have one full day at the relatives we are visiting.

That is a shame 5madthings.
Doesn't he get any say in when he takes his leave?

My employer actually likes me to take a day here and there because it is easier to get a colleague to cover for one day IYSWIM. If I double my work load before and after I have a day or two off, it is easier for my colleagues. (It is exhausting though).

He can request leave but no not nay more say than that. He got a bunch of leave earlier in the year but all when the madthings were at school.

He works with children in care home ans they need more stadd on over the school holidays and they have to have a certain number of staff on duty and on call. He is a senior member of staff and as such is needed more. It sucks but it is what is and sadly given the job market and niche area of work he can't just up and leave.. Mortgage to pay etc.

I started off being concerned at how this policy affected essential services in August, but have been moved by the posts to think of just how difficult it has been for families, particularly those somehow expected to take divided family holidays. That's just plain unreasonable.
I'd never considered those keeping an eye on elderly relatives at a distance or the Children's Home Worker required to work the holidays.
The case of the Devon couple shown on TV who ran a Tea Room and paid the fine in order to work the tourist season is interesting not just that they paid the £120, but it illustrated that there is a divide between those who can and cannot pay the fine.
I now think it is quite impossible to judge who is or who isn't an essential worker. The most important thing is surely to keep families together. The very people who could claim that they are being denied a "right to family life" are those completely unable to pursue it - they haven't got the time or the money. If they had the money they wouldn't have the problem.
So yes, if they want it (they may not) I'd let all have up to 5 days to have a break outside the public exam time to support their family life whatever their particular needs are. I could even see some Head Teachers being in support of this. I can't imagine they enjoy their position being changed from approachable but authoritative to someone who is now the feared finer. It must be particularly difficult in Primary Schools where there is much more parental contact. Goodwill must have been lost making the running of schools even more stressful.
What do you think?

Sirzy - I think that might be an old rule. Both my DH and I are police in the Met and the Commisioner has advised that any officer who recieves a Penalty Notice for taking DC's out in termtime will also be disciplined within the job.
Its a case of minimum numbers, which is the same all year round. If you apply early enough, we're talking up to 10 months in advance, you might get lucky and have a summer holiday.
However there are days which are protected due to numbers of police needed for an event. For those hardly anyone gets leave eg Notting Hill Carnival at the end of August.

I agree with the original posting.
I'm waiting for "urgent" surgery and have been told that it would usually be within 4 weeks, but due to the school holidays, it will most likely be 6-7 weeks. My consultant said that the school holidays affect the waiting lists due to reduced staffing.
Not good.

I wonder if this has been challenged as a Human Rights issue yet. A right to a family life is a human right and I think the right for a family to all have at least a week or 2 off at the same time could be argued to fall under this.
I think that it is interesting that nobody is stopped from having holidays in termtime , they are just 'fined' for it suggests it to be mainly a case of taxing parents.
The argument about the school being a community is a load of bollox.The school is there to benefit the child, not the other way round!

Surely under no definition of human rights does the "right to family life" (which means things like freedom to marry by choice and procreative rights) extend to detail of number of days on holiday.

I'm not aware of any human rights treaty, legislation or campaign for rights to holidays.

Also, no parent in UK is compelled to use state-provided schools. If holiday policy is a concern overriding all others, then you don't have to use state-provided facilities which have had legislated attendance regulations since the 1940s.

'You have the right to enjoy your family relationships without interference from the government' from Human rights website

No it is not about going away on holiday as such.It is about members of a family having time together which clearly they can't do if the parents are always at work when the kids are off school and the kids are at school when parents are at home.