So now levels have been scrapped how will we know what progress our dc are making?

[MotleyCroup]

Ds has done really well in his KS1 end of year report. He's coped with a change of school as well as the SATs (his school didn't keep it discrete) and he's making new friends.

Question is, at the end of Y3 what then? If things stayed as they were I would know, by his next parents evening, what (if any) progress he was making. Now how will I know? What will be put in the current systems place?

Why have they scrapped the current system (when I'd just got my head around the meaning of the levels)?

Ok so if I dare ask year 3 teacher next week what exact levels shes at she will know?

Again next year year 4 shes will have a level?
but years 5 and 6 when she does sats how will I know how shes done in sats if no level.

will there still be level 4 , 5 and 6 sats papers with kids sitting different ones?

What I dont understand sorry if sounds silly.

but how can so many primary kids be at same level as 14 year old at age 10 and 11?

I always assumed lower and middle cohort ability must be most common and very few in higher cohort.

Im happy dd1 achieved expected for age group and above in literacy but then hear about so many kids same year group at her school and different schools much higher which the makes me think why?

I know the class cohort can vary loads as her teachers said her class is not as strong at writing as last years year 3.

Then you sometimes hear abut kids staying same level or even dropping a level how do we pick up on these kds without levels.

I think its quite natural to want to quantify progress and achivement like do with music ie grades.

I ave heard some private schools actually rank the class which sounds bit harsh.

its s hard make comparisions which is why we need a benchmark at moment its average or expected nc levels.

I really want to trust the education system.
I want to trust the school and the teacher.

but having been failed by 1 primary school and trust broken im more anxious about it without a level n her year 1 report would never have known she was behind.being told last day term year 1 shes behidn after 2years of parents evenings saying shes fine not amusing.

I realised sometimes have to be more interested and bit tiger in end we had to move schools i feel if she was left at old school she be behind ad even further behind gap and widening hap with her class mates.

But Im not afraid with new school ask difficult questions.

years 4 and 5 important and will be keeping close eye on how shes doing.

unfortunatly every school has few dud or not s good teachers.

The old school recently got another bad ofsted they focussed on attainment and it said kids that not making much progress lower ks2 so year 3 and 4 dd1s year and teaching is not consistantly good said r, year 1 and 6 was good so what about years 2, 3, 4 and 5?kids were bored in class and behaved badly.

New school has very few teachers and new teacher is fairly young and current year 4 teachers say she does not pushy enough she was job share older teacher who left half way through the year.

"not in the UK Bonsoir where they are tested twice in seven years!"

Mrz, that is somewhat disingenuous. Although there are only 2 points where children's results HAVE to be reported, the requirement to track / demonstrate progress on a very regular basis [largely Ofsted imposed, but also a perfectly reasonable parental expectation] then children's attainment has to be measured [not tested, but kept track of] all the time.

So although in the great majority of schools a continuous assessment process (APP or school-specific) is used to keep track of progress in between statutory tests, there are many schools that use some summative testing in addition to this.

Mrz - the point about Level 5 is exactly what I mean about the discontinuity between phases. In the current 'new primary but not new secondary curriculum' mess, should a Level 5 child be recorded as 'working within year 6' or 'working within year 8', because in September BOTH will be true!

thanks for info mrs z you always have been very helpful and informative and gave great advice when we got bad year 1 report.

I do feel bad tbh

i should have asked more questions in year r and 1
i shouldent have been so trusting and chilled out.

when dd 1 started year 2 she was behind most of the year 45kids and on bottom tables everything and level 3 ort.

when we moved after 1term ctober half term at new school she was behind most of her year group of 20kids.

Shes had 1 to 1 rapid read snappy sounds, rapid read and handwriting every week from xmas to now and belive this is whats impacted on her above in literacy as her teachers ved hate to think chossing pory strong in english.

I would choosing poorly has impacted n how she does all though primary,

Its great shes at expected level but its amazing to actually be ahead in something and huge boost to her confidence.

as last few years always been same kids who always been ahead.

its easy to think when will my child have chance to shine.
thankfully new schol not level obsessed or pushy and still get great results.

I will be questioning pe and art as think they one of her strengths.

The rest im happy with. but not having level and freinds other schools given levels makes it hard to compare.

all the parents at our school be same as me they mostly say good reports but no ones been told exact levels.maybe they have been told year 5 and 6 due to sats.

I know dd is on middle table.

most of top table year 3 have aut birthdays and some are just genuinally clever.

'Coasting' is interesting. I was an able non-coaster - partly because I was year-accelerated on entry to a very selective school, then entered for some O-levels 'when ready' (ie 2 years younger than normal) rather than when my original or new year group would have done them.

I was worried about coasting for my in many ways equally able DCs, especially as they are in a non-selective state school system. However, I have been genuinely impressed by the 'oooh, able child - what fun' approach taken by almost all the teachers they have encountered so far. [Year 8 Maths teacher 'Anyone want to try an AS question on this bit of the subject? You have the basic knowledge but you will really have to think!']

I ave heard some private schools actually rank the class which sounds bit harsh.

Although it sounds harsh and I agree that it is crude children are well aware of who is most able and least able etc in a classroom. The children realise from a young age where their own ability lies in relation to the rest of the class.

yes true and maybe if parents just knew and not kids.

dd1 was patently aware she was in bottm groups and lower reading levels than others and it damaged her confidence and self esteem.

dd happy being in middle of course she sometimes says i wish i was on top table what do I have t do to get there,

she was same in year 2 on bottom table so they need something aim for if i try hard and achieve this this and this i will get tangible result as reward.

im still unsure what table she be next year i hazard guess she will be middle again.

Interesting to note when asked teacher at parents evening she said they did not set tables but dd1 says they do harder work and knowing who kids are on tp table i think shes right just teacher does not want kids obsessed with it and guess parents too.

she does gym and says she needs 7more ticks to get badge 1.

they have literacy and numeracy targets so yes kids very much self aware.

if i was guess where she was in year out of 20 would say shes 12-16 shes in mixed year 2/3class and year 3 has 3tables and year 2 has 2tables.science and pe are taught in year groups.

shes set into ability top group for phonics letters and sounds.

Theres new polish boy who speaks very little english and struggling s guess he be bottom.

"Although it sounds harsh and I agree that it is crude children are well aware of who is most able and least able etc in a classroom."

But what value is that UNLESS the class is exactly representative of a national sample?

The least able child in my current class would be middle in some other schools. A middle child might be top elsewhere. That's why something transparent and comparable nationally and with age expectations is needed (like levels).

I work in state schools so do understand levels.

However my dd's independent schools don't use NC levels. So all through primary we never had a single level. And you know what? It's never been an issue. It was still really clear she was making progress and it what areas. We were informed of what she could do, how she was working, how she was progressing.

Life without levels has been perfectly fine for us for the past 8 years so I am sure it will be fine in the state system too.

very true her year 3 teacher said every cohort, year group is different

I dont know what my freind sons class is like in different part of uk.

I know of 2 locally high performing pushy academic schools.

one parent said if he was at any other school he be bright but within his school hes having to work very hard. the other school gives tonned homework, coaches sats and gets 100%sats results still unsure how the heck they do it think dd1s school gets mid high 80s,.

I can compare my child to this years class

see how this years class compared with last years

see how freind in school down road or freind in different part of country,

also with so many different schools now academy and free schools be useful to compare how different types of schools perform so faith schools always do better?

Demographics and location of school and intakes play huge variable factors,

Hula baby-some private schools use nc levels and do sats/phonics test.

Of course not all private schools are good

but high proportion are and do acheive fab results smaller class sizes, more staff, facilities, intake all play factor.

Its not easy to demonstrate at primary level but at seniors

every year gcses and a levels

local rag report,

its the private schools that get best results

followed by small handful of well performing state schools hard get into either faith, selected entry, lottery, or very wealthy catchment area with rest of schools doing ok local comp 36%-pass rate a -c

lots of parents look at year 6sats as deciding factor that child should go there.

They dont publish year 2 sats but ur school when we joined gave parents the result.

most state teachers time poor and dont always time to have a chat about childs performance.

hulla but in some ways you actually had a jebel given to you because you had somevteportvfypm school saying how much she progressed, if and where there were some issues.
We get fuck all. I wouldn't be able to tell you what my dcs have done/learnt this year. No feedback from teachers, a quick 10min chat mid year and that's all. I gave just learnt that dc2 is having major problems with spelling. But I know just because I specifically asked for it. Otherwise? I would still Be in the dark.
That's why levels are important big schools aren't changing the way the communicate with parents, don't given them more feedback as to what the children are learning and how they are doing, how on earth are you suppose to support your dc, have an idea of how well they are doing etc???
There is already very very little communication already. Wo the levels there will be none.

Fwiw I would much prefer a direct feedback telling me where the issues are and what us going well than levels. It would make more sense to me. But I can't see the whole system changing so much that we will be getting all that next year. :(

You can't see the detail of this without being a member, but thought this group might be interested to know that the National Association of Head Teachers has just published a framework that schools can choose to use to assess children against the new curriculum: www.naht.org.uk/welcome/news-and-media/key-topics/assessment/naht-produces-new-framework-on-assessment-to-guide-school-leaders/.

One reason for moving away from levels that hasn't really been discussed on this thread yet is the fact that schools are now freer than they used to be to develop their own curriculum. Academies and free schools don't have to follow the National Curriculum at all (though I think most choose to use it as a backbone at least), and even schools that do have to follow it are encouraged to think about it as only part of their whole school curriculum. So if all schools are following slightly different curricula, it's not possible to have a single assessment system that checks how they're progressing.

It's true, of course, that it's difficult for a state school to deviate too far from the NC, as their children all need to take SATs in Y2 & 6, but I think it's good that there's room for schools to introduce things they think are important into the curriculum, link with things that are relevant in their local area, etc.

yes true and maybe if parents just knew and not kids.

How would you prevent children from knowing? They are in a classroom of mixed ability and they can easily work out who has the more difficult reading books, who has maths that they completed two years ago etc.
we can't pretend that kids are stupid and unable to work these things out.
We need a more sophisticated system to inform parents which sets against a national cohort, but kids will always know where they stand against their classroom peers so there is little we can do to prevent little janes self esteem from being affected because her reading book is not the same as little Mary's.

I know some independents use NC levels. And some use SATs too. Many don't too. Doesn't relate to how good they are though.

I just think many people out far too much emphasis on levels.

If a school is doing a good job they can ensure pupils are making good progress and keep parents informed without the need for NC levels.

Another interesting doc from NAHT here: www.naht.org.uk/assets/assessment-commission-report.pdf

Have a look at the case studies on p.20 onwards for ideas for how schools can reliably track progress and keep parents informed without using levels. I think the one from the Wroxham School is particularly inspiring.

How Hula?

Having a friend with dc in private who tell her anything she wants to hear just how do such schools inform parents reliably for parents? It's in every school's interest to show good results/progress and not necessarily the truth at times.

but how can so many primary kids be at same level as 14 year old at age 10 and 11?

How can a five year old achieve GCSE maths www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-68111/Boy-passes-GCSE.html same as 16 year olds ... natural ability and tutoring?

And re your experience Hula of your private school now that is by no means the same for everybody.

I've been really shocked by the utter lies told to my friends(wp which the true extent of which are coming to light at the end of her primary years and the 11+)and appalled that they pay thousands for it.

It just wouldn't happen in the state system with levels. Firstly it would have been obvious ages ago and secondly Ofsted would have been down on them like a ton of bricks.

OECD found that "UK state schools outperform UK private schools when socio-economic background is factored in."

mrz,
but how can so many primary kids be at same level as 14 year old at age 10 and 11?

I think you're missing the point. The degree of differentiation of the age when students achieve a 5 does not align well to the natural differentiation in human intelligence. I think the state system assessment process could use an upgrade to ensure more students are not coasting.

OECD found that "UK state schools outperform UK private schools when socio-economic background is factored in."

I have no doubt those findings are true and reflect reality. I do, however, wonder whether an exceptionally bright child from a Higher socioeconomic group will achieve the same at a school in a deprived area with a financially deprived cohort as they would at a good selective private school or a state school in a wealthy area .

Unfortunately testing doesn't tell you if a child is coasting proudmama

"Although it sounds harsh and I agree that it is crude children are well aware of who is most able and least able etc in a classroom."

i think its fine for kids to know where they fall in the class ranking when they are mature to manage their own learning around the time they start studying for GCSEs. Before then I think its pretty cruel and should be much more subtle.

Also up until around age 9, there can be wide variations in ability and development patterns and kids level off. Unfortunately in the state system, they've already been identified as falling into a statistical percentile category below average, average, above average, well above and it tends to be a label that stays with them. It can be pretty damaging.

mrz
Unfortunately testing doesn't tell you if a child is coasting

but I deliberately didn't say testing here. More frequent assessment